View Poll Results: Are Social Security and Medicare Constitutional?

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  • Medicare ONLY Is Constitutional

    0 0%
  • Social Security ONLY is Constitutional

    0 0%
  • BOTH Medicare and Social Security are Constitutional

    13 52.00%
  • NEITHER are Constitutional

    12 48.00%
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Thread: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

  1. #11
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Government has the power to collect taxes & fees to fund programs that care for the welfare of the people.

    The People have the power to vote in or our politicians that support such programs that we like.

    Medicare & Social Security is no more or less unConstitutional than using tax-dollars to build a new road or maintain an existing bridge.

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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    by virtue of the fact that both are taxes.

    the expenditure in Medicare... I'm not sure I would argue for that. Regardless, some form of it is here to stay. SS benefits are really just a negative tax rate.
    But the tax money can only be used for the carrying out of the enumerated powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Government has the power to collect taxes & fees to fund programs that care for the welfare of the people.

    The People have the power to vote in or our politicians that support such programs that we like.

    Medicare & Social Security is no more or less unConstitutional than using tax-dollars to build a new road or maintain an existing bridge.
    This may be what you prefer, but has no historical grounding.

    If you read the enumerated powers I listed on the front page...those are the things that the Federal government is allowed to do. Roads are one of them, healthcare/retirement funds are not.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    why is it Constitutional for govt. to use tax-dollars to build roads?

    to build schools?

    to pay cops, firemen, teachers?

    to fund an army & navy?

    to pay for libraries?

    same reason its Constitutional for govt. to fund pension plans & health insurance.

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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    why is it Constitutional for govt. to use tax-dollars to build roads?

    to build schools?

    to pay cops, firemen, teachers?

    to fund an army & navy?

    to pay for libraries?

    same reason its Constitutional for govt. to fund pension plans & health insurance.
    Read the darn document, please.

    For roads: To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

    Army and Navy:
    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
    To provide and maintain a Navy;


    There is no Federal government authority for cops, firemen, and teachers, or libraries.

    I cannot believe you are continuing to post your ignorance with such confidence.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    ...I cannot believe you are continuing to post your ignorance with such confidence.
    no mention of an Airforce there huh?

    looks like we'll have to scrap the whole thing.

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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    why is it Constitutional for govt. to use tax-dollars to build roads?

    to build schools?

    to pay cops, firemen, teachers?

    to fund an army & navy?

    to pay for libraries?

    same reason its Constitutional for govt. to fund pension plans & health insurance.
    You're mixing a few values here also confusing federal with state governments. The federal government builds federal roadways. For state roads the feds do some grants to the states that the states use (combined with their own tax receipts). Schools are funded by the states helped by funding to the states from the feds. Same with cops, firemen and teachers - though those are primarily funded exclusively by the state and county governments. Libraries are state/county government unless they are federal libraries.

    Army/Navy? Really? That's an obvious answer.

    As for constitutionality, considering you're talking about the federal constitution, pension plans and health insurance are a state thing. There's still a constitutional question about those being federal powers (though the SS issue has pretty much been settled by the SCOTUS).

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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    no mention of an Airforce there huh?

    looks like we'll have to scrap the whole thing.
    No need for the sarcasm.

    The Air Force is part of the armed forces. The planes are simply a type of equipment. Don't be ridiculous.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    While I see there has been much good in both SS and medicare, there has also been plenty of bad.
    Our Federal Government is in no way chartered to engage in charity!
    As good as any of the results may be, they are still acting outside their charter.
    An alternative view. The "return" rate to the contributor never exceeds 1% and is guaranteed by the federal government(dependent upon it's solvency of course). The SSI program follows none of the rules that private companies must follow such as solvency, cash on hand rules, and private companies may not make guarantees not found in contract. In contrast, private retirement plans while dependent on the market tend to have ten year lock in rates of between 2.5-6% with some variance either way in between, but always show a better return than SSI benefits AND can be collected at age 59 versus having to wait till 65 with SSI. As well, medicare/medicaid have the stingiest payment levels and the most denials of any medical plans, only Aetna, a horrid private company comes close.

    The difference is that SSI/Medicare taxes are compulsory whereas a person must seek out some form of private retirement plan and those companies must engage in the highest of fiduciary practices by U.S. law or face dire monetary or criminal penalties. So, I do not believe there is any good in SSI however I can see that it is impossible to get rid of these programs without doing great economic damage to both individuals in the systems and the U.S. as a whole.

    To constitutionality, I don't see how it is constitutional TBH. It is not a power found within the enumerated constitutional provisions, and does not fit the general welfare clause when one pairs it to the federalist/anti-federalist papers and only throught the most loose of interpretations of tax powers could one find the justification for these programs. The "general welfare" clause was originally intended to be that which facilitates things all individuals gain from, this pertains to infrastructure(commerce), defense(all need it but no ONE can provide it), trade regulation BETWEEN the states and not UPON them, etc. I feel that while these programs are unconstitutional in the strictest sense there is no way to eliminate them in the forseeable future.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    I believe that both are constitutional for their orginally stated purposes, based on the 16th amendment power to tax income from all sources, yet neither program has really worked as intended. The fact is that many citizens now pay no other federal payroll taxes except for SS/Medicare.

    Much tinkering with the SS law has made the benefits lose pace with the real cost of RETIRED living and the recent changes to the way that the CPI is determined cheated the system considerably. SS still generates a massive surplus that is borrowed and spent on other things, medicare is among them. Both systems need constant adjustment to keep them actuarially sound and to maintain the intended level of benefits.

    As the life expectancy increases the payroll tax rates and/or the SS/medicare benefit ages must be adjusted. There is also the possibility of "means testing" the SUPPLIMENTAL retirement income paid, perhaps no more SS should be paid than to allow for a maximum total annual retirement income of 250% of the maximum SS benefit.

    Medicare has so many parts now that I am unsure what the real deal is with it now. If PPACA allows (requires?) insurance for everyone by a "private" medical plan then why not add medicare folks to the normal pool, let them "pick" a plan and let them be subsidized with the medicare payroll tax and a percentage (2% to 8%?) of their SS and private retirement funds?
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-12-12 at 06:03 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I believe that both are constitutional for their orginally stated purposes, based on the 16th amendment power to tax income from all sources, yet neither program has really worked as intended. The fact is that many citizens now pay no other federal payroll taxes except for SS/Medicare.

    Much tinkering with the SS law has made the benefits lose pace with the real cost of RETIRED living and the recent changes to the way that the CPI is determined cheated the system considerably. SS still generates a massive surplus that is borrowed and spent on other things, medicare is among them. Both systems need constant adjustment to keep them actuarially sound and to maintain the intended level of benefits.

    As the life expectancy increases the payroll tax rates and/or the SS/medicare benefit ages must be adjusted. There is also the possibility of "means testing" the SUPPLIMENTAL retirement income paid, perhaps no more SS should be paid than to allow for a maximum total annual retirement income of 250% of the maximum SS benefit.

    Medicare has so many parts now that I am unsure what the real deal is with it now. If PPACA allows (requires?) insurance for everyone by a "private" medical plan then why not add medicare folks to the normal pool, let them "pick" a plan and let them be subsidized with the medicare payroll tax and % of their SS and private retirement funds?
    Medicare only has two government parts, parts A and B. Part A comes straight from payroll taxes and no further effort need be applied but it pays almost nothing, B is a slightly expanded optional fee which is limited in scope but still pays more than A. All other parts are individual policies approved by CMS to be sold by private companies which must comply with all regulations issued by that board, it's not complicated if you take them one at a time and read into the details. What happens is that medicare pays it's portion of the bill and the other optional parts supplement the rest up to obligations.

    Again though, under tax powers.....I'm thinking you are of the same opinion it has to be based upon a loose interpretation of the 16th amendment but is possible to justify with that.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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