View Poll Results: Where does the power end?

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  • Congress can now pass any law, so long as it's enforced only with taxation. Explain

    4 33.33%
  • Congress still has a limit on the laws they can pass. Explain

    8 66.67%
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Thread: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

  1. #1
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    Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Taking this SCOTUS decision to an inevitable (IMO) next step, that could come from either party: eliminating our Bill or Rights.

    For example, given the recent ACA ruling, what would stop Congress from creating the following 'tax':

    "All citizens will have a 5% tax increase on their earned income. Likewise, if those citizens are not found to have spoken or written negatively about Barack Obama during the calendar year, they will receive a 5% tax credit"

    They aren't FORCIBLY taking away free speech. They're just taxing us and encouraging us how to speak to help prevent those taxes. They aren't FORCING us to buy Health Care. They're just encouraging us by giving us a tax break to a tax they just created.

    I don't believe it will get this far today; I believe the people have the intelligence enough today to stop it. But with each generation accepting these new 'rights' of our government, such laws become more likely. Today, they wouldn't think of passing an amendment to prohibit alcohol or any other substance. Once, Congress understood that it was beyond their power to force such a thing without granting themselves such power within the constitution.

    The 10th Amendment, IMO, is dead. Long live the King?

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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    The SCOTUS does not make law, they simply evaluate law as to whether it conforms to the constitution, or not. It is NOT "judicial activism" to declare a law, or lower court ruling based on law, as unconstitional. Justice Roberts wrote a "majority" opinion that NO other justice, even those voting for making the PPACA law stand, would sign on to.

    The federal power to tax INCOME (IRS) comes only from the 16th amendment, that simply allows INCOME from all sources to be taxed. IMHO, Roberts has, in fact, become an "activist" judge in allowing HOW INCOME WAS SPENT, rather that simply the income itself, to be subjected to taxation. Two citizens both making EXACTLY $50K in income (from any source) should not be taxed any more, or less, than the other, based on the 14th amendment requiring EQUAL protection under the law.

    The nonsense of our 80,000+ pages of FIT law with the majority of that law addressing how income was spent with credits, deductions and exclusions based NOT on the source of the income, but how that income was LATER spent, is unconstitutional. The SCOTUS is far to lenient in giving even a slight INDIRECT relationship to a federally authorized power, to serve as a reason to say that a law is constitutional. Simply using the IRS as a collection agency does NOT make the PPACA fine/penalty LEGAL, as NOTHING in the constitution gives the federal gov't power to order a citizen to buy a private product or service, to reward them for doing so or to punish them for not doing so.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-05-12 at 12:02 PM.
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    no, it can't.

    only other amendments can kill the Bill of Rights.

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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    For example, given the recent ACA ruling, what would stop Congress from creating the following 'tax':

    "All citizens will have a 5% tax increase on their earned income. Likewise, if those citizens are not found to have spoken or written negatively about Barack Obama during the calendar year, they will receive a 5% tax credit"
    The First Amendment would stop them from doing that.

    They aren't FORCIBLY taking away free speech. They're just taxing us and encouraging us how to speak to help prevent those taxes. They aren't FORCING us to buy Health Care. They're just encouraging us by giving us a tax break to a tax they just created.
    The difference between those two situations is that Congress is specifically prohibited from abridging your right to freedom of speech in the Constitution; no such prohibition exists on regulating your health care. Any "encouragement" about how to speak would be a violation of the First Amendment, and the courts have almost always viewed such "encouragement" that way.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-05-12 at 12:31 PM.
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?
    you mean the part that was left after the failed war on some drugs and the WOT?

    yeah, the crumb of it that's left is put in real danger by health care.

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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    The same thing that stopped congress from doing it a month ago. The tax and spend power is not unlimited. It must be in pursuit of a legitimate government purpose. Most of the things that people are suddenly terrified will be forced upon then via a tax are NOT constitutionally allowed purposes. Public health is. And rightly so.

    Keep in mind that this could all have been avoided of conservatives hadn't done everything in their power to kill single payer and the public option. If this decision does all of the things you're afraid it does (though it doesn't), you have no one but yourselves to blame.
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    Taking this SCOTUS decision to an inevitable (IMO) next step, that could come from either party: eliminating our Bill or Rights.

    For example, given the recent ACA ruling, what would stop Congress from creating the following 'tax':

    "All citizens will have a 5% tax increase on their earned income. Likewise, if those citizens are not found to have spoken or written negatively about Barack Obama during the calendar year, they will receive a 5% tax credit"

    They aren't FORCIBLY taking away free speech. They're just taxing us and encouraging us how to speak to help prevent those taxes. They aren't FORCING us to buy Health Care. They're just encouraging us by giving us a tax break to a tax they just created.

    I don't believe it will get this far today; I believe the people have the intelligence enough today to stop it. But with each generation accepting these new 'rights' of our government, such laws become more likely. Today, they wouldn't think of passing an amendment to prohibit alcohol or any other substance. Once, Congress understood that it was beyond their power to force such a thing without granting themselves such power within the constitution.

    The 10th Amendment, IMO, is dead. Long live the King?
    Actually I think what killed our Bill of Rights was the secret courts and drastic surveillance without warrants.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Lets put it this way...Unless we begin to have fair and equitable taxation, we will have far more serious problems than just the Bill of Rights.
    And "news-flash" !
    The rights are not unlimited !

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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    FDR pretty well killed the tenth amendment and seriously damaged the Second Amendment and part of the 14th Amendment (yeah I know its not part of the bill of rights but it incorporated those rights). The taxation powers and the commerce clause have both become end arounds the tenth amendment and the entire raison d'être of the constitution--to create a federal government of LIMITED powers

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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Lets put it this way...Unless we begin to have fair and equitable taxation, we will have far more serious problems than just the Bill of Rights.
    And "news-flash" !
    The rights are not unlimited !
    Fair taxation being everyone pay the same since they each have the same citizenship rights?

    or fair being each paying the same amount out of every dollar they have for the government?

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