View Poll Results: Where does the power end?

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  • Congress can now pass any law, so long as it's enforced only with taxation. Explain

    4 33.33%
  • Congress still has a limit on the laws they can pass. Explain

    8 66.67%
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Thread: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

  1. #41
    Sage

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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    A hard right opinion seems to always claim the government's power must be found spelled out in the Constitution.

    A more moderate opinion is the Constitution spelled out the categories our Federal government has control over the devil being in the details and for each new generation to address as the economy blossomed from farming to industrial to now electronic finance and beyond. Our society went from a patrician class dominating everything from wealth to voting to an uneasy power sharing with an expanded middle class.

    While extremists attempt to weave a doom and gloom situation where the poor wealthy are stripped of all their money through ending all exemptions, others can point to continuing a wealth system where a few can be born into incredible power with no effort on their own. Like the nobility of old who maintained power by maintaining the legal/financial system to their benefit.

    It reminds me of an old saying so my question is,

    Which is better, teaching your offspring how to be a success or simply hand it to them? That old teach them to fish vs just making sure they have a life time supply of fish to play with?

    To have a child who's claim to fame is inventing the lowly sticky note or an heiress who's claim to fame is the catch phase, "that's hot"?

    The wealthy will never fall into the middle class due to taxation. Their race to the top of the leap where wealth beyond usefulness maybe slowed but our history to include during FDR's time never has them selling apples on the street corner-

    Their collective greed and fiscal irresponsibility did that.

  2. #42
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    its not a hard right position-its the fundamental basis upon which the constitution was premised by those who wrote it.

    I love the left who claims that we who work hard to give our children a better life are somehow hurting them while those dem voters who suck from the public tit are showing their kids how to become proper citizens.

    collective greed is the best way to describe those who gain power by addicting so many voters to becoming public tit suckers

  3. #43
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    A hard right opinion seems to always claim the government's power must be found spelled out in the Constitution.

    A more moderate opinion is the Constitution spelled out the categories our Federal government has control over the devil being in the details and for each new generation to address as the economy blossomed from farming to industrial to now electronic finance and beyond. Our society went from a patrician class dominating everything from wealth to voting to an uneasy power sharing with an expanded middle class.

    While extremists attempt to weave a doom and gloom situation where the poor wealthy are stripped of all their money through ending all exemptions, others can point to continuing a wealth system where a few can be born into incredible power with no effort on their own. Like the nobility of old who maintained power by maintaining the legal/financial system to their benefit.

    It reminds me of an old saying so my question is,

    Which is better, teaching your offspring how to be a success or simply hand it to them? That old teach them to fish vs just making sure they have a life time supply of fish to play with?

    To have a child who's claim to fame is inventing the lowly sticky note or an heiress who's claim to fame is the catch phase, "that's hot"?

    The wealthy will never fall into the middle class due to taxation. Their race to the top of the leap where wealth beyond usefulness maybe slowed but our history to include during FDR's time never has them selling apples on the street corner-

    Their collective greed and fiscal irresponsibility did that.
    But the simple truth is that those at the bottom can still better their postion in life by contributing only their productive efforts, IFF they choose to do so. Simply getting a piece of paper, e.g. a liberal arts degree, does nothing for anyone, yet those OWS loons profess that, in itself, was their GREAT contribution and expect a reward for that effort alone. Many see the guy who builds houses, repairs cars, prepares food, sells shoes or makes products in a factory as entitled to LESS than one who goes to college, and EARNS that "valuable" degree, yet neither produces goods for, nor provides any services to, anyone. You get rewarded for your actual contributions to society, not for expending mere directionless effort.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #44
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Taxing the rich will not ruin the rich kid's chances of a better life, that is yet another over the top extreme stance. I have ZERO doubt the rich will continue to get richer- it is the old world, nobility sense of entitlement the wealthy have when it comes to each generation having the opportunity to achieve rather than a select few born to wealth demanding a more and more slanted field of play. Nothing suggested for the balancing of our budget will strip the wealthy of their mansions, jets, vacation homes and most of what they keep hidden overseas.

    While I can see the noble class seeing much of the social safety net as 'tit sucking', it is another clique throw out there to belittle.

    I would say the INTERPRETATION of our Constitution can go many ways, the extreme right have their opinion of what the patrician agrarian Founders meant, actually put in the Constitution, wrote at length after the ratification. Those who see a more moderate path see Congress was given the power of taxation well before any amendments were tacked on. See much of the Constitution as a guide, not a Holy Document, it is to show us a way, not put a limit on, the growth of a nation from some small coastal strip to a nation stretching from sea to shining sea and a strong International Power.

    Before the usual knee jerk right wing rant attack on my lean... I swore my life to support and defend the Constitution so it does mean alot to me, and I was willing to do more than type about it. Men have died so the Constitution may live on, and live it does, it isn't frozen in time and for much of our laws it doesn't need to be amended to guide the nation. It should reflect our times and be seen from OUR POV, not the Founders who couldn't for see the rise of an Industrial power or what was a hated institution of their day, a monopoly, being the ideal business model for our nation.

  5. #45
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    tell me why a group that makes 22% of the income and yet pays more than 40% of the progressive income and estate taxes, need to pay more when NO OTHER Group pays more of the income tax burden than their share of the income?



    have you ever figured out that high income taxes and death taxes insulate the uber rich and prevent others from gaining the status?

  6. #46
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    tell me why a group that makes 22% of the income and yet pays more than 40% of the progressive income and estate taxes, need to pay more when NO OTHER Group pays more of the income tax burden than their share of the income?

    have you ever figured out that high income taxes and death taxes insulate the uber rich and prevent others from gaining the status?
    By the same token, does the VALUE of the work done by the top 10% REALLY exceed the VALUE of the work done by the bottom 10% by several hundred times? There is much validitiy to the argument that income disparity is NOT proportional to the VALUE of the work being performed. This situation may be easily seen by looking at the pay of a trade worker compared to that of an office worker. I am not saying that this is "by design" or totally "unfair", but one must look at the trends, to see that wages at the bottom have stagnated and have been overcome by inflation, while those "wages" at the top have risen by far MORE than the general rate of inflation.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-06-12 at 01:22 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #47
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Taxing the rich will not ruin the rich kid's chances of a better life, that is yet another over the top extreme stance. I have ZERO doubt the rich will continue to get richer- it is the old world, nobility sense of entitlement the wealthy have when it comes to each generation having the opportunity to achieve rather than a select few born to wealth demanding a more and more slanted field of play. Nothing suggested for the balancing of our budget will strip the wealthy of their mansions, jets, vacation homes and most of what they keep hidden overseas.

    While I can see the noble class seeing much of the social safety net as 'tit sucking', it is another clique throw out there to belittle.

    I would say the INTERPRETATION of our Constitution can go many ways, the extreme right have their opinion of what the patrician agrarian Founders meant, actually put in the Constitution, wrote at length after the ratification. Those who see a more moderate path see Congress was given the power of taxation well before any amendments were tacked on. See much of the Constitution as a guide, not a Holy Document, it is to show us a way, not put a limit on, the growth of a nation from some small coastal strip to a nation stretching from sea to shining sea and a strong International Power.

    Before the usual knee jerk right wing rant attack on my lean... I swore my life to support and defend the Constitution so it does mean alot to me, and I was willing to do more than type about it. Men have died so the Constitution may live on, and live it does, it isn't frozen in time and for much of our laws it doesn't need to be amended to guide the nation. It should reflect our times and be seen from OUR POV, not the Founders who couldn't for see the rise of an Industrial power or what was a hated institution of their day, a monopoly, being the ideal business model for our nation.
    You mistake a change in the NATURE of the private economy to need changes in the NATURE of the federal government. The two are NOT related. The taxation of a citizen's income FROM ALL SOURCES (16th amendment), does NOT mean based on how that income is LATER spent (that SHOULD BE protected by the 14th amnendment, as EQUAL protection of the law), yet gov't has TAKEN that power, not granted by the constitution and run WILD with it. We now have FAR more FIT law about credits, dedcutions and exclusions, BASED on how the income was LATER SPENT, than about how to tax the INCOME itself. Federal power creep was seen from DAY ONE, and the constitution WISELY sought to limit it.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  8. #48
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    By the same token, does the VALUE of the work done by the top 10% REALLY exceed the VALUE of the work done by the bottom 10% by several hundred times? There is much validitiy to the argument that income disparity is NOT proportional to the VALUE of the work being performed. This situation may be easily seen by looking at the pay of a trade worker compared to that of an office worker. I am not saying that this is "by design" or totally "unfair", but one must look at the trends, to see that wages at the bottom have stagnated and have been overcome by inflation, while those "wages" at the top have risen by far MORE than the general rate of inflation.
    the market seems to think so and that is far less artificial than some government bureautards saying otherwise.

  9. #49
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the market seems to think so and that is far less artificial than some government bureautards saying otherwise.
    Those in CONGRESS are paid quite well to agree with you, other than that, what "market force" makes a lawyer worth $150/hour? If laws were made UNDERSTANDABLE, then might we not need $150/hour lawyers to "interpret" them?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #50
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Could taxation kill our Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Those in CONGRESS are paid quite well to agree with you, other than that, what "market force" makes a lawyer worth $150/hour? If laws were made UNDERSTANDABLE, then might we not need $150/hour lawyers to "interpret" them?
    150 an hour? that's very low in the circles I deal with. But I agree-we have far too many lawyers causing far too many costs to be imposed on the private sector. good lawyers will always be needed, bad ones are parasites- we need to close about 2/3ds of the law schools or make passing the bar far far tougher.

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