View Poll Results: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

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  • Retirement (explain how)

    8 26.67%
  • Medical Care (explain how)

    1 3.33%
  • On base amenities

    4 13.33%
  • A 5 year pay freeze

    2 6.67%
  • Other

    15 50.00%
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Thread: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

  1. #81
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    Re: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Incorrect - you would be kicking out careerists.
    LOL! Link please
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  2. #82
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    Re: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

    Going to have to take this step by step to get to all the **** here.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you're not posting in a manner that is worth disputing. First you insinuated that a report said what it didn't.
    I misread something, and when you pointed it out, I abandoned the argument. Hardly some horrible thing, it happens. I do note that you never did manage to actually dispute the thrust of the report that I linked to, and I would also point out that this is why links are good.

    Then you said that we didn't have to cut personnel or ops/maintenance. Then you argued that we could cut ops/maintenance,
    You do realize those are not mutually exclusive? We do not have to cut from any area you do not want to to cut spending. You said that "Personnel and Maintenance are the two largest costs for DOD", I replied "Because two things are the biggest, that must mean that is the only place spending happens." See what happens when actual quotes are used? Note that this is not the same thing as saying that we could not cut those areas. This is not rocket surgery. You tried using stupid logic by saying that since those two areas where the biggest parts of military spending, to cut military spending you had to cut those two areas, which is not actually true. It can be done, it has been done. Your failed logic is just that, failed.

    just through more magical "efficiency". Then you bring up the BRAC (again), apparently forgetting that one of the reasons BRAC saved money is because we cut the personnel. Maybe you should spend some time figuring out what you actually think, and then come back in here.
    BRAC saved money because based are expensive. BRAC did not cut troop levels nor was that figured into the savings of BRAC. The 1993 commissions reported a savings projection of 2.3 billion a year from not having to pay for bases(they are expensive, you should visit one sometime, you will see why). BRAC was not magic, it was effective and analytical. Hell, the Pentagon wants to continue BRAC every 8 years, but congress stepped in. Apparently you know more than the Pentagon though.

    The military has time and again found ways to save money. It can be done. Your ridiculous and silly claim that the only way to do it is by cutting this one thing or that one thing is just that, ridiculous and silly. There are literally thousands of ways to cut military spending without reducing readiness not screwing our troops and vets over.

    (Again) No one says that we can't or shouldn't seek efficiency savings. If you had the intellectual capacity to understand critique as anything other than a personal assault (to which you apparently feel the need to respond in kind, though the more you do so the weaker you appear) you would have been able to grasp that MarineTPartier and I have been discussing ways to do and incentivize just that. But the notion that we have painless options in significantly reducing DOD spending is BS.
    Why build these straw men? Who said painless? Not me. I said it could be done. There is a difference between can do and can't do type people. One tends to succeed more in life.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  3. #83
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    Re: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    LOL! Link please
    ...you really need someone to demonstrate to you that when you decommission entire units you lose careerists?

    ....are you aware that anyone who has reenlisted is considered a "careerist"? Did you think we had PFC's running our Battalions? When the Marine Corps loses a whole Regiment (which we are), that's every slot from the Colonel on down we lose, and that means that we are now inviting them to pursue exciting opportunities in the civilian workforce.

  4. #84
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    Re: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I misread something, and when you pointed it out, I abandoned the argument.
    You cut a sentence in half in order to make it appear to say something that it did not say. If you now want to claim it was an accident and you just didn't bother to read and understand your own source... well only you know if you're telling the truth. I'm not going to stoop to your level and start calling everyone I disagree with a liar.

    I do note that you never did manage to actually dispute the thrust of the report that I linked to
    That there is large waste in government? I think we can safely assume that that's something the vast majority of conservatives (including myself) believe. But the nature of government is to waste. You can make efficiency improvements here and there, sure. But if we could just press the "be efficient" button, we would have solved the Medicare Fraud issue long ago. If you want to talk about real savings - that's a ticket, to be sure.

    and I would also point out that this is why links are good.
    Yup. That's why I linked for you the FY 2012 DOD budget demonstrating that under the cuts already putting into place we were having to cut personnel, operations / maintenance, and procurement. The Marine Corps is jumping through it's butt trying to figure out a way to make cuts while complying with the Commandant's guidance to lose as little combat experience as possible - the best we've got so far is to try to just screw over the guys who aren't as good by making our "up or out" standards more difficult. Though we're getting cut in other places too. I got a buddy who's out, but whose brother joined up and is now in our old sister Battalion. Their BC came out and told them to play Modern Warfare for 6 hours a day, since he couldn't afford them better training for a while.

    If we could just clap our hands and make efficiencies keep us from having to make these kinds of cuts, we would be.

    You do realize those are not mutually exclusive?
    YOU were the one arguing we didn't have to cut Operations/Maintenance and Personnel.

    Here, since you are big on links, let me link you the post in which you rejected the notion that we would have to cut from Ops / Maintenance and Personnel

    Gah, this is like earlier when Catawba argued that we owed it to the troops not to cut their benefits, and then stated that instead we should cut their jobs

    We do not have to cut from any area you do not want to to cut spending.
    That is correct. We could, for example, close all of our bases and tell our troops to go home and just pay them to report in every morning via their cellphones. However, what we are looking for here are realistic budget deductions.

    BRAC saved money because based are expensive. BRAC did not cut troop levels nor was that figured into the savings of BRAC.
    That is incorrect - units were decommissioned in conjunction with base closings. I watched this happen down the road in Anniston, Alabama. You may recall how the military shrank during the 1990's? That whole "Peace Dividend"? The "hollowing out of the force"?

    The military has time and again found ways to save money.
    Yup. If you had bothered to read the information provided for you, you would see how we are doing it right now.

    Why build these straw men? Who said painless? Not me. I said it could be done. There is a difference between can do and can't do type people. One tends to succeed more in life.
    So you think we can significantly cut the DOD budget without cutting personnel or operations and maintenance?

    alright - put up or shut up. Let's see your numbers.
    Last edited by cpwill; 07-04-12 at 07:24 AM.

  5. #85
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    Re: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Hate to burst your bubble bro. Not many of us actually endure hardship. Hardship to me is what I've been through. Hardship is what Third Battalion, 5th Marines went through in the Sangin River Valley in 2010-2011.100 Firefights, Three Weeks: Inside Afghanistan's Most Insane Fight | Danger Room | Wired.com
    What most troops have encountered in Iraq and Afghanistan is this.
    Attachment 67130377
    Attachment 67130378
    Attachment 67130379
    I hate to sound bitter, but I am very tired (this isn't directed at you) of people acting like all of these guys that have Skype, a telephone, A/C, hot food 3 times a day, a toilet, etc are going through some sort of hardship. I have yet to go on a deployment where I have had access to any of those things besides in transit on the way in and out of theater. Sure, they're away from their family. That's about it. And they can see them every night if they want on Skype. Guys like that aren't going through any sort of hardship besides having to choose if they want an omelet or pancakes in the morning at the DFAC. I hate fobbits.
    whats your point marine...theres alot of nam vets that never saw a firebase and were in country, but they were there ready if called.....and you cant burst my bubble it was burst 45 yrs ago ...ok im bailin on this conversation its not good for my mental health

  6. #86
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    Re: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

    Quote cpwill

    When the Marine Corps loses a whole Regiment (which we are), that's every slot from the Colonel on down we lose, and that means that we are now inviting them to pursue exciting opportunities in the civilian workforce.

    Soooo…whatcher sayen is everyone from full birds,to pfc’s will be in the Oceanside Brach of CA.'s ’unemployment line if the 11’th gets cut/decommissioned?
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

  7. #87
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    Re: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

    I don't think that they should have to give up anything. They had to give up their honor to fight our recent OILY nightmares. None of the current wars have been about freedom, democracy, justice, liberty or any of the other high-sounding moral initiatives coming from the speakers of the "Mighty Wurlitzer." They've already been stabbed in the back by their political leadership. Why do you think there are 18 suicides per day in the military?

  8. #88
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    Re: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Why do you think there are 18 suicides per day in the military?
    18 per day? Are you sure about that? I find that number extremely high.

  9. #89
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    Re: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

    Quote Originally Posted by Porchev View Post
    18 per day? Are you sure about that? I find that number extremely high.
    Mullen: 18 veterans kill themselves every day in the U.S. | The Raw Story

    "Navy Admiral Mike Mullen (ret.), former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told an audience in Aspen this weekend that military has “18 vets a day who are killing themselves in the United States” due to the incomprehensible stresses of military life, which he said are compounded by a public that is increasingly disconnected from the ongoing wars.

    "Military suicides rose dramatically after the start of the Iraq war, according to a recent study by the Army’s Public Health Command. That same study found that in 2008, 1 in 5 U.S. soldiers voluntarily submitted to a mental health evaluation, “implying a prevalent public health problem.” Since then, the military’s suicide rate has continued to climb, hitting a 10-year high in 2012, even though U.S. forces are almost entirely withdrawn from Iraq."

  10. #90
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    Re: What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    IMO, we should sacrifice our retirement. When I say sacrifice, I mean that instead of being able to collect our retirement the year we leave our respective (I use that term loosely for everyone but the Marine Corps lol) service, we should wait until we are 55. I think 10 years earlier than everyone else is a justifiable reward for serving 20 or 30 years in an environment where you go to war for others who choose not to and you have no collective bargaining agreement in regards to your retirement to begin with. Some of the other stuff in the poll could go too. I just believe this should be first.

    I picked other.I think that biofuel that the navy spends 23 dollars a gallon on should be the first thing cut. I am pretty sure that is not the only thing the military wastes money on.So every possible waste should be cut first before we start demanding that our troops pay and benefits be cut first.

    As for troop retirement age I think that really should depend on the MOS.A pog that has a civilian equivalent job for example should retire about the same year a civilian does before being allowed to collect retirement.A infantryman or some other combat troop and EOD9(explosives ordinance disposal) should be allowed to retire early due to the hazards of the job and the fact their MOSs are very physically demanding on their body.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 07-04-12 at 05:00 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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