What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

Catawba · Jul 3, 2012

cpwill said:
Never have I done such a thing. They do, although the workforce is pretty tough out there for the dominant age group in the military. But let's not pretend that firing them is somehow "treating them better" than telling them they can't draw a pension until they are 55. You're the one talking about how we should look for all these other things before we ask them to sacrifice - but then you demand they sacrifice their jobs? How the hell does that make sense?

Job placement programs, and giving tax breaks to employers that hire vets as the Democrats have proposed would be preferable to most vets than having their benefits cut, I would wager.

tessaesque · Jul 3, 2012

Catawba said:
Job placement programs, and giving tax breaks to employers that hire vets as the Democrats have proposed would be preferable to most vets than having their benefits cut, I would wager.

Not to mention, after many tours of duty over seas, especially in a combat zone, I bet many military personnel would welcome aid in finding a civilian job.

Redress · Jul 3, 2012

cpwill said:
:lol: this is funny coming from the person who didn't even understand her own cited source.

You know how you can tell when you're losing? You get ruder .

No, in fact, it is a remarkably dumb idea to do that. Because that means that you have fully functional ships full of willing sailors floating around wherever the tides take them because you don't have the money for any friggin fuel. Or you get satellites falling out of the sky and we can't replace them. Our F-15's are as old as the pilots flying them.

But there is a reason you refuse to get specific other than to reference vague "savings" from "efficiency". Because anything you hack into is going to hurt combat efficiency and global security. Which ultimately means more dead people. Main exception being unless you reform spending on the soft squishy people running all this equipment. Then you don't hurt combat efficiency / security so much.

Here's how we're spending:

SO in fact those two items are not "half", but rather just shy of "two thirds".

But hey, you keep on trying to solve the deficit without touching Social Security or Medicare. Maybe you can get some real good efficiencies out of squeezing foreign aid :roll:.

Seriously, you haven't picked up on the fact that we're looking at cutting 30,000 Marines, 100,000 Soldiers, and enough Naval Vessels to put our fleet back at pre-WWI size? We're not doing that for the kicks and giggles.

For some one being in the military, there is an incredible amount about the military you either do not know about, or are willing to lie about. Look at the second item on the list you gave. Operations and maintenance. If you think operations and maintenance cannot be made more efficient you have no knowledge at all of the military. Let me give you a hint about one way that has been done and done successfully, that the pentagon wants to do, but congress rejects: Base Realignment and Closure Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Guess where the savings comes out of, at least partly. Better planning on aircraft and ship maintenance is a work in progress that results in the reduction of the need to expedite parts, which is painfully expensive to do.

Third on your list is procurement, and if you don't think there are savings to be had there simply by better oversight you are incredibly silly.

Research, Development, Testing and Evaluation is another one. We frequently take far too long to cancel failing programs.

We have and can cut military spending without reducing equipment and without negatively impacting personnel. Tying to suggest you can't do it denies history and reality. The military budget is going to get cut, has to be cut. The republican idea that spending is bad, except for spending we approve of is why we have such a huge debt(note: they are not alone in this).

lpast · Jul 3, 2012

cpwill said:
It's not a question of "deserve". I don't deserve ankles that require me to crab-walk for the first ten minutes of every morning and hurt sitting in a chair. I don't deserve knees that go clicketyclick and throb every where I go. I don't deserve periodic bouts of depression and survivors' guilt. But nobody made me stand on the yellow foot prints - I chose this, knowing I would have to give. So I have to give? :shrug: it's what I signed up to do. At this point, it's not a matter of what "we deserve", it's a question of utility. We have to give up, so, we should figure out what is best to give up.

You know what else I don't deserve? I don't deserve to retire at the age of 44 with a nice monthly check and medical coverage from all my friends who will be working to age 67 in order to send it to me. That'd be a dick move on my part to say that I deserve that from them because I agreed to stand on the footprints. It's nice, I'll admit. In fact, it's a pretty sweet deal - which is why you see alot of guys double-dip and pull two retirements. :roll: But let's not pretend that we deserve that at the expense of other, more important stuff.

Frankly, switching the pension to the TSP-match, over time, would be a better option for the younger first-term guys. They get to get out and get on with their lives with their retirement savings already started.

Thats a crock of chit marine...no your not drafted and forced in anymore...but thats ONLY because the real american kids step up to the plate and volunteer, if and when they STOP volunteering to do what the rich kids WONT do, then you will see how fast the draft comes back so the rich can assure their richs and POWER.
Look there is no way you can justify your attitude towards your own to me CPWILL...Ive seen the results of doing for your country up front and personal...We have lots of wheelchairs and missing limbs in my VFW and the DVA and the VVA...we have lots of smiling faces that gave up a healthy normal life for other dirtbags that could care less.
NO ONE DOES or gives what a military person does, especially COMBAT TROOPS...no one....the mental strength you need...the moral strength you need not to become a criminal...the fortitude and COURAGE...the training...the days away from your family...your longing to hold your GF..your wife...your daughter...dont you even try to justify to me that our kids need to have LESS so the rich scumbags can have more......ILL PAY MORE...and Ill pay more happily and willingly....Our kids deserve nothing less than GUARANTEES, they get the best medical attention for what they gave...that they have income to live the rest of their lives NOT HOMELESS..that there is help for mental health and a GUARANTEED INCOME for the COMBAT DISABLED and the troops that gave all the prime money making years of their life to the service of their choice...your right wing stuff falls on my deaf veteran ears...and let me make this clear...I dont collect a veterans pension and I could easily get one just by applying I CHOSE NOT TO...I dont use tricare or go to Vet hospitals although I can...I have the means to provide for me and I do..and I believe I should leave it for another who needs it more than I....this is NOT about me....This is about what I believe is right.
Im not going to get into this conversation again, my feelings are too strong on this and I will get banned for sure...thats why I avoid military threads..and the nam thread...I dont even want to talk about that chit or hear it anymore

American · Jul 3, 2012

Should we cut R&D so our troops have to fight was unimproved existing equipment? Remember, we already have many of our major weapons systems on extended life programs, and we are still feeling the effects of major R&D cuts during the 1990's. Almost all of them 1970's and 1980's systems designs.

American · Jul 3, 2012

Jerry said:
Why do people always ask this? This should be an infraction!

Have some ****ing patience! The poll doesn't get posted when the thread is made. The thread has to be made *first* and then you get to add a poll to it. Give OP some time to think about what he's typing. The forum gives him 25 minutes, so STFU until then. Damn people WTF!

Relax, Jerry. He didn't ask the question till the OP was up for about 10 minutes. Sometimes people forget the poll.

Redress · Jul 3, 2012

American said:
Should we cut R&D so our troops have to fight was unimproved existing equipment? Remember, we already have many of our major weapons systems on extended life programs, and we are still feeling the effects of major R&D cuts during the 1990's. Almost all of them 1970's and 1980's systems designs.

You can cut R & D so that programs that are failing do not continue to get funding. It is not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it.

Surtr · Jul 3, 2012

American said:
Should we cut R&D so our troops have to fight was unimproved existing equipment? Remember, we already have many of our major weapons systems on extended life programs, and we are still feeling the effects of major R&D cuts during the 1990's. Almost all of them 1970's and 1980's systems designs.

We can easily cut R&D for a lot of projects, while continuing R&D for necessary programs. The Abrams for example. Still the best tank in the world, I don't see why we can't just order all new ones with updated systems and armor. We can also get rid of the Bradley and shift the funds wasted on those things towards real APC's that are current, and in existence right now. As far as aircraft, the Air Force wastes mountains of cash on developing the things. Example: the Air Force already has the F-22, why do they need an F-35? I can understand why the Navy wants it, but the Air Force clearly doesn't need it. The Marines are getting rid of the M-249 and replacing it with the HK M-27. A carbine rifle. It's nonsense. On top of that, we have so many different camouflage patterns and uniforms, you put Service Members from all the branches in one spot and you get a base that looks like a godamn gypsy camp. The amount of military waste is too damn high, and it needs to be stopped. That can be done without jeopardizing necessary developments.

TNAR · Jul 3, 2012

Piece of cake, start with a cease of all foreign operations and then make a 25% cut across the board. Then they can begin taking a good look at the various units and reduce the overall forces by about half. It wouldn't be enough, but would be a good place to start.

PrometheusBound · Jul 3, 2012

Confiscate the wealth of Chickenhawks like Bush, Romney, and Limbaugh. That was the punishment in Ancient Greece, when Alciabides's son had his father's friends got him exempt from war service.

MarineTpartier · Jul 3, 2012

Lokiate said:
I saw waste every day in the Army too. We were supposed to have gone electronic to save paper, but we (as one company) must have wasted at least a ton of paper every fiscal year. We wasted fuel, energy, resources, all of it. I'm not even counting training, just the stupid ****. Hundreds of thousands down the ****ter every year, and that's just one company.

OOOOOHHH!!!! You just shook the MTP pissed off tree. I HATE OUR WASTING OF PAPER!!! There's a backstory to this btw.
In the Marine Corps, we are required to fill out a friggin 6 page booklet to go on extended liberty for Federal holidays, etc. This includes:
-A cover sheet= 1 page
-A sheet that shows every in the chain of command from squad leader up to company CO= 1 page
-A Mapquest/Google maps route= 3 pages usually
-A pledge that we won't be stupid and get a DUI, yada yada yada= 1 page

Why you ask? Think about who cares about this stuff. Higher ranking officers, that's who. This whole thing is a big "cover my butt" operation. When Lieutenant Colonel Lobotomy goes up to Colonel Brainwashed , he says "But sir, he filled out a liberty package. What more could I do?" or he says "But sir, the lowly, peon enlisted men didn't fill out the liberty package properly........ Yes sir, of course sir. I'll make sure he gets NJP'd..........Yes sir, I'll end his career.........Thank you for letting me keep my command sir. Thats what counts." <--(that's the cynical version btw). Then Colonel Brainwashed goes up to General I'm a Uniformed Politician and tells him the same thing. Who pays in the end? Either way, the enlisted man. Who else pays? The taxpayer for a bunch of paper we don't need to use. The sad part is, there's an online version of it we could use on Marine Online. Why don't we? Because the lawyers over at the Staff Judge Advocate say its not admissable in a court martial if a Marine violates the liberty limits set forth. The reason? It doesn't have the Marine's signature on in, therefore it can't be proven that he actually filled out the liberty package online.
Last part, and I'm sure some of you will like this. For an entire year, I saved every single liberty package we put together in my unit. Thats 6 pages, 120ish packages, every federal holiday, for a year. I put them in my walllocker. Then, when the cutbacks I knew were coming hit everyone in the face, I dropped the hammer on the Battalion CO. He wanted to have a meeting with all of the Staff NCO's and Officers about our fiscal forecast and how we were going to be hurting soon. I brought those packages with me. It took myself and 3 other Marines to carry it into the conference room. I piled it up on the table and said "You can start there sir. Paper ain't cheap." Guess what? They're still using paper. For the reason I stated above.

Redress · Jul 3, 2012

Paperwork, I have only one thing to say...OPNAV FORM 4790/60, Visual Information Display System/Maintenance Action Form

If you ever used one, you hated them. 5 pages, built in carbon, probably close to a hundred a day filled out in each squadron. I hope those have gone away.

MarineTpartier · Jul 3, 2012

lpast said:
I disagree and I was not a career man...Men and Women who serve our country and all of us, during the prime years of their lives. Who live through the hardship of leaving their loved ones time and again, who are under the threat of supreme physical harm on tour after tour to chith oles and whos children have to go through the heartbreak of being uprooted from school and friends many times....DESERVE WHAT THEY GET.
and in most cases deserve more....

Hate to burst your bubble bro. Not many of us actually endure hardship. Hardship to me is what I've been through. Hardship is what Third Battalion, 5th Marines went through in the Sangin River Valley in 2010-2011.100 Firefights, Three Weeks: Inside Afghanistan's Most Insane Fight | Danger Room | Wired.com
What most troops have encountered in Iraq and Afghanistan is this.

I hate to sound bitter, but I am very tired (this isn't directed at you) of people acting like all of these guys that have Skype, a telephone, A/C, hot food 3 times a day, a toilet, etc are going through some sort of hardship. I have yet to go on a deployment where I have had access to any of those things besides in transit on the way in and out of theater. Sure, they're away from their family. That's about it. And they can see them every night if they want on Skype. Guys like that aren't going through any sort of hardship besides having to choose if they want an omelet or pancakes in the morning at the DFAC. I hate fobbits.

MarineTpartier · Jul 3, 2012

Redress said:
Paperwork, I have only one thing to say...OPNAV FORM 4790/60, Visual Information Display System/Maintenance Action Form

If you ever used one, you hated them. 5 pages, built in carbon, probably close to a hundred a day filled out in each squadron. I hope those have gone away.

Whats it for?

fishinRod · Jul 3, 2012

Catawba said:
My son is nearing his 20 mark in the Air Force and he sees beaucoup wastes everywhere in the military.

i remember once when i was stationed at Ft. Hood, i was doing a PM on my truck/trailer and noticed bolt missing...I went up to the motor pool to get one, the guy checked into what i needed and said it had to be ordered.....a few days later i was told i had something up at the motor pool, i went my "bolt" but instead i was given a whole box of bolts....i just needed one...too bad, the whole box was mine he said...i took one out and left the box.....i have no idea what they did with it but i guarantee the next guy who came to get one had to have one ordered and received his own box full too...............this stuff happened all the time.....and waste in the mess hall? please, they throw away more food than you can imagine...........

Redress · Jul 3, 2012

MarineTpartier said:
Whats it for?

Every time something an an aircraft breaks, or needs to be worked on, or you look at it, or the pilot has his head up his ass, one of those forms is filled out(you can see one here and yes we used almost every box: NAVY MAF Form). My home shop would clear anywhere from 10 to 40 a day.

DVSentinel · Jul 3, 2012

They should sacrifice Liberals, anything used to protect liberals and any pro-liberal programs, then they wouldn't need to sacrifice anything useful to themselves or the country.

Porchev · Jul 3, 2012

MarineTpartier said:
IMO, we should sacrifice our retirement. When I say sacrifice, I mean that instead of being able to collect our retirement the year we leave our respective (I use that term loosely for everyone but the Marine Corps lol) service, we should wait until we are 55. I think 10 years earlier than everyone else is a justifiable reward for serving 20 or 30 years in an environment where you go to war for others who choose not to and you have no collective bargaining agreement in regards to your retirement to begin with. Some of the other stuff in the poll could go too. I just believe this should be first.

While I completely agree with the need for fiscal restraint on the government’s part, and reviewing the current military retirement system is completely valid, however, I think there are some good reasons for why it is the way it is.

For example, to have an effective force, the active duty/full time military should have healthy and relatively young individuals (for the majority of the force). So offering some sort of retirement after 20 to 30 years allows the make-up of the force to remain that way. This positively benefits the fighting force as a whole.

However individuals are forced to find a second career later in life, and very often (but not always) the pay in that second career will be less than what they worked their way up to in the military, especially since they are (for the most part) starting at the bottom of the ladder again. So a modest retirement check helps off-set a somewhat lower salary than what they were getting.

And by modest retirement check, let’s take the example of someone that is retiring right at 20 years at the pay grade of E-7 (an extremely common retirement rank). That person will get about 35%ish of what they were making as a retirement check (rough estimate). Yes, everyone in the media says 50%, however as many of us already know, it is 50% of Base Pay, which is not 50% of what you were getting paid. So, with all that said, to keep the force youthful and strong and to compensate individuals for having no choice but to change careers in their 40s. I think the retirement pay should be left as is (in my humble opinion).

Surtr · Jul 3, 2012

MarineTpartier said:
OOOOOHHH!!!! You just shook the MTP pissed off tree. I HATE OUR WASTING OF PAPER!!! There's a backstory to this btw.
In the Marine Corps, we are required to fill out a friggin 6 page booklet to go on extended liberty for Federal holidays, etc. This includes:
-A cover sheet= 1 page
-A sheet that shows every in the chain of command from squad leader up to company CO= 1 page
-A Mapquest/Google maps route= 3 pages usually
-A pledge that we won't be stupid and get a DUI, yada yada yada= 1 page

Why you ask? Think about who cares about this stuff. Higher ranking officers, that's who. This whole thing is a big "cover my butt" operation. When Lieutenant Colonel Lobotomy goes up to Colonel Brainwashed , he says "But sir, he filled out a liberty package. What more could I do?" or he says "But sir, the lowly, peon enlisted men didn't fill out the liberty package properly........ Yes sir, of course sir. I'll make sure he gets NJP'd..........Yes sir, I'll end his career.........Thank you for letting me keep my command sir. Thats what counts." <--(that's the cynical version btw). Then Colonel Brainwashed goes up to General I'm a Uniformed Politician and tells him the same thing. Who pays in the end? Either way, the enlisted man. Who else pays? The taxpayer for a bunch of paper we don't need to use. The sad part is, there's an online version of it we could use on Marine Online. Why don't we? Because the lawyers over at the Staff Judge Advocate say its not admissable in a court martial if a Marine violates the liberty limits set forth. The reason? It doesn't have the Marine's signature on in, therefore it can't be proven that he actually filled out the liberty package online.
Last part, and I'm sure some of you will like this. For an entire year, I saved every single liberty package we put together in my unit. Thats 6 pages, 120ish packages, every federal holiday, for a year. I put them in my walllocker. Then, when the cutbacks I knew were coming hit everyone in the face, I dropped the hammer on the Battalion CO. He wanted to have a meeting with all of the Staff NCO's and Officers about our fiscal forecast and how we were going to be hurting soon. I brought those packages with me. It took myself and 3 other Marines to carry it into the conference room. I piled it up on the table and said "You can start there sir. Paper ain't cheap." Guess what? They're still using paper. For the reason I stated above.

It's similar in the Army. I never got up to the level where I even saw a Colonel except at the PX, but LT's love love love paperwork, and roll that love downhill all the way to the team leaders. At one point in Korea, I (an E-4 SPC) had to have my Soldiers fill out some stupid "under the oak tree" counseling form in addition to the Squad leaders safety brief, right after the PLT SGT made us fill out a form stating we would be on our best behavior, after the Company brief preformed by the 1SGT and Commander. This happened every last day of the work week. Every last day of the work week, I had to bring a stack of paperwork to the Training Room and Ops. Then there were monthly counselings, counselings for when somebody ****ed up, briefs for leaving post, and additional brief for going beyond 150 meters of post, which also required a pass to be filled out and signed by me (team leader, which is an absolutely worthless position), the SL, PLT SGT, LT, 1SGT, and the Commander or XO. Every week we did PMCS, all papers reviewed and signed by the same ridiculously long chain of command, with the addition of the chain that leads to the Motor SGT, work orders, upon work orders, upon work orders, and my favorite: the counseling that allowed me to render inop equipment unserviceable for the purpose of legitimate turn in for replacement.
Then there were the forms for listing of valuable items to be placed on your door so chain of command was not liable for stolen items, the long list of letters orders, directives, etc from the Commander printed and copied and to be placed everywhere imaginable. CQ checklists, Staff Duty checklists, JSIDS checklists, checklist checklists to check of the listed checks, and more checklists for the sake of saying why the hell not. Now I know what happened to all the worlds ****ing rainforests.

cpwill · Jul 3, 2012

MarineTpartier said:
OOOOOHHH!!!! You just shook the MTP pissed off tree. I HATE OUR WASTING OF PAPER!!! There's a backstory to this btw.
In the Marine Corps, we are required to fill out a friggin 6 page booklet to go on extended liberty for Federal holidays, etc. This includes:
-A cover sheet= 1 page
-A sheet that shows every in the chain of command from squad leader up to company CO= 1 page
-A Mapquest/Google maps route= 3 pages usually
-A pledge that we won't be stupid and get a DUI, yada yada yada= 1 page

we took images of the papers, fit them onto a Power Point, and shrunk the whole thing down to one page.

Why you ask? Think about who cares about this stuff. Higher ranking officers, that's who. This whole thing is a big "cover my butt" operation. When Lieutenant Colonel Lobotomy goes up to Colonel Brainwashed , he says "But sir, he filled out a liberty package. What more could I do?" or he says "But sir, the lowly, peon enlisted men didn't fill out the liberty package properly........ Yes sir, of course sir. I'll make sure he gets NJP'd..........Yes sir, I'll end his career.........Thank you for letting me keep my command sir. Thats what counts." <--(that's the cynical version btw). Then Colonel Brainwashed goes up to General I'm a Uniformed Politician and tells him the same thing. Who pays in the end? Either way, the enlisted man. Who else pays? The taxpayer for a bunch of paper we don't need to use. The sad part is, there's an online version of it we could use on Marine Online. Why don't we? Because the lawyers over at the Staff Judge Advocate say its not admissable in a court martial if a Marine violates the liberty limits set forth. The reason? It doesn't have the Marine's signature on in, therefore it can't be proven that he actually filled out the liberty package online.

:lamo :lamo :lamo

cpwill · Jul 3, 2012

Catawba said:
Job placement programs, and giving tax breaks to employers that hire vets as the Democrats have proposed would be preferable to most vets than having their benefits cut, I would wager.

A) both cost money
B) both tend to be ineffective
C) yes LOSING THEIR JOBS would probably be seen as being worse than having to wait until age 55 to collect a pension :roll:

cpwill · Jul 3, 2012

lpast said:
Thats a crock of chit marine...no your not drafted and forced in anymore...but thats ONLY because the real american kids step up to the plate and volunteer, if and when they STOP volunteering to do what the rich kids WONT do, then you will see how fast the draft comes back so the rich can assure their richs and POWER.
Look there is no way you can justify your attitude towards your own to me CPWILL...Ive seen the results of doing for your country up front and personal...We have lots of wheelchairs and missing limbs in my VFW and the DVA and the VVA...we have lots of smiling faces that gave up a healthy normal life for other dirtbags that could care less.
NO ONE DOES or gives what a military person does, especially COMBAT TROOPS...no one....the mental strength you need...the moral strength you need not to become a criminal...the fortitude and COURAGE...the training...the days away from your family...your longing to hold your GF..your wife...your daughter...dont you even try to justify to me that our kids need to have LESS so the rich scumbags can have more......ILL PAY MORE...and Ill pay more happily and willingly....Our kids deserve nothing less than GUARANTEES, they get the best medical attention for what they gave...that they have income to live the rest of their lives NOT HOMELESS..that there is help for mental health and a GUARANTEED INCOME for the COMBAT DISABLED and the troops that gave all the prime money making years of their life to the service of their choice...your right wing stuff falls on my deaf veteran ears...and let me make this clear...I dont collect a veterans pension and I could easily get one just by applying I CHOSE NOT TO...I dont use tricare or go to Vet hospitals although I can...I have the means to provide for me and I do..and I believe I should leave it for another who needs it more than I....this is NOT about me....This is about what I believe is right.
Im not going to get into this conversation again, my feelings are too strong on this and I will get banned for sure...thats why I avoid military threads..and the nam thread...I dont even want to talk about that chit or hear it anymore

man. everything for you really comes down to how much you hate people who made more money than you did, doesn't it? did a banker beat you up as a child?

cpwill · Jul 3, 2012

Redress said:
For some one being in the military, there is an incredible amount about the military you either do not know about, or are willing to lie about.

:lol: Project much?

Get back to me when you've decided to stop dishonestly editing your quotes from sources.

Redress · Jul 3, 2012

cpwill said:
:lol: Project much? Get back to me when you've decided to stop dishonestly editing your quotes from sources.

I did not figure you would be able to dispute what I wrote. It is good to be right.

cpwill · Jul 3, 2012

Redress said:
I did not figure you would be able to dispute what I wrote. It is good to be right.

:roll: you're not posting in a manner that is worth disputing. First you insinuated that a report said what it didn't. Then you said that we didn't have to cut personnel or ops/maintenance. Then you argued that we could cut ops/maintenance, just through more magical "efficiency". Then you bring up the BRAC (again), apparently forgetting that one of the reasons BRAC saved money is because we cut the personnel. Maybe you should spend some time figuring out what you actually think, and then come back in here.

(Again) No one says that we can't or shouldn't seek efficiency savings. If you had the intellectual capacity to understand critique as anything other than a personal assault (to which you apparently feel the need to respond in kind, though the more you do so the weaker you appear) you would have been able to grasp that MarineTPartier and I have been discussing ways to do and incentivize just that. But the notion that we have painless options in significantly reducing DOD spending is BS.

What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

What should military members be willing to sacrifice first?

Retirement (explain how)

Medical Care (explain how)

On base amenities

A 5 year pay freeze

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