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"Free Trade" OR "Protectionism"

Free Trade or Protectionism?

  • Free Trade

    Votes: 25 64.1%
  • Protectionism

    Votes: 14 35.9%

  • Total voters
    39
yes, I am very familiar with the history of racism and the use of race-baiting to disrupt arguments.

Hey no offense, Orwellian propagandist, but I don't want to live in the same country as you, you creep me out.
 
:lamo:lamo

ok man, whatever you say.

You really creep me out, the more you open your mouth, the more creepy it becomes.

You know the primary trait of an Orwellian society is that they don't know they are living in an Orwellian society.
 
Until America figures it out? Who is America if not the consumers within? How can an arbitrary political construct "figure" anything out? Can you not see that America, from an economic perspective, is nothing more than the aggregation of millions of individuals? If a mafia of 546 dictate to the remaining 300 million serfs how the "problems" will be solved then how do you expect anyone to be free? How do you expect 546 individuals to determine the best way for 300,000,000 individuals to live their own lives? Your logic baffles me.

Nothing you said has anything to do with imposing tariffs to promote American production and industry. This outsourcing and imbalanced trade crap is destroying our economy. The market is saturated with cheap **** made in China, we have the means to produce, we do produce, but the consumer will always buy the cheaper product. Tariffs make the foreign product more expensive than the domestic. There's nothing baffling about it.
 
Or you're a 9 year old, they love emotes and going "LMAO" allot. Children are hopelessly institutionalized, won't be able to think for themselves to they hit 40.
Sometimes not even then.
 
Nothing you said has anything to do with imposing tariffs to promote American production and industry. This outsourcing and imbalanced trade crap is destroying our economy. The market is saturated with cheap **** made in China, we have the means to produce, we do produce, but the consumer will always buy the cheaper product. Tariffs make the foreign product more expensive than the domestic. There's nothing baffling about it.

so you are in favor of making it harder for poor people to provide for themselves in order to benefit upper-middle class union members?
 
so you are in favor of making it harder for poor people to provide for themselves in order to benefit upper-middle class union members?

Unions don't have anything to do with outsourcing. Companies outsource because they can Chinese workers next to nothing,require them to work for 80 hours a week for that next to nothing pay and not have to worry about any worker and environmental safety laws. If unions were the problem then these companies would have moved to right to work states.


It could be argued that since you favor uncontrolled outsourcing that you favor helping communist and that you favor helping to fund the Chinese army. Amazing how die hard party-tard republicans claim to be patriotic and used to bash communist but now are globalist pieces of **** who support funding a communist government and military.
 
Unions don't have anything to do with outsourcing.

Companies outsource because they can Chinese workers next to nothing,require them to work for 80 hours a week for that next to nothing pay and not have to worry about any worker and environmental safety laws. If unions were the problem then these companies would have moved to right to work states.


It could be argued that since you favor uncontrolled outsourcing that you favor helping communist and that you favor helping to fund the Chinese army. Amazing how die hard party-tard republicans claim to be patriotic and used to bash communist but now are globalist pieces of **** who support funding a communist government and military.
They've done more than their fair share to demonize free trade.

Companies outsource because the price of employing only U.S workers would be far too great to justify maintaining the current prices at which their products currently reside. Increased labor output leads to higher prices, which leads to decreased sales and lessened ability to expand (or retain for that matter) their workforce and consumer base alike. Forcing companies to remain stagnant would be highly detrimental to companies which happen to preside in fields with competitors on the global scale (i.e. all of them.) The idea of utilizing only American labor is an wonderful notion, but unfortunately it is both highly unrealistic and counterproductive.

If we had placed ideologically founded restrictions on trade in the past on a large scale as you suggest, a large chunk of the countries that currently purchase large amounts of our debt and consumer goods alike presently would likely still be quasi third world civilizations with infinitely lower standards of living.
 
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They've done more than their fair share to demonize free trade.

Seeing how unrestricted free trade in only used to pay people next to nothing and exploit the fact there is little to no enviromental and employee protection laws the unions didn't really have to do an demonizing of free trade.
Companies outsource because the price of employing only U.S workers would be far too great to justify maintaining the current prices at which their products currently reside.

The main reason for outsourcing would be exploit the fact you can pay a worker next to nothing,require that employee to work 80 hour work weeks and exploit the fact there are little to no employee and environmental laws.

Increased labor output leads to higher prices, which leads to decreased sales and lessened ability to expand (or retain for that matter) their workforce and consumer base alike.

That's only true when American companies have to compete with foreign companies. You remove that foreign competition or even the competition between American and forign companies then it won't lead to decreases sales and lessened ability to expand.


Forcing companies to remain stagnant would be highly detrimental to companies which happen to preside in fields with competitors on the global scale (i.e. all of them.)

I am not worried about foreign companies.Companies that outsource are no longer American.

The idea of utilizing only American labor is an wonderful notion, but unfortunately it is both highly unrealistic and counterproductive.

No one is saying that all trade has to be stopped.Just that if those companies in those countries don't adhere to the same standards we have to adhere to then tariffs should be imposed. Allowing companies to leave the US is not a good idea.Sending jobs to a country like China is a ****en idiotic idea, unless you want a communist country to succeed and grow its military at the expense of American jobs.

If we had placed ideologically founded restrictions on trade in the past on a large scale as you suggest, a large chunk of the countries that currently purchase large amounts of our debt and consumer goods alike presently would likely still be quasi third world civilizations with infinitely lower standards of living.
I am not worried about those other countries.Other countries should not be uplifted at the expense of American jobs.If you want to uplift China,Mexico or some other country then do so at your own expense.
 
The problem with tariffs and the like is that it will drive up the price (in our country) of whatever has a tariff on it.

The plus side being that businesses who try to make that item here in the US (thus paying more for wages, meeting regulations, and taxes) can compete at the same level, for the smaller market (due to higher prices). Is that a plus side?
 
so you are in favor of making it harder for poor people to provide for themselves in order to benefit upper-middle class union members?

The status quo of our heavily imbalanced trade with foreign nations creates more poverty by giving American jobs to the Chinese, instead of using our own domestic resources and people. Cheaper production is stealing American jobs, not creating them, and only benefits the corporate heads and large business owners. Maintaining this status quo is ****ing the lower classes over by reducing the amount of jobs and opportunities available to them.

Furthermore, I'm tired of all these bull**** appeals to the poor, as though the people who use these hollow attempts really give two ****s about the lower classes. It's no different than the political squabbles and chest beating politicians do to declare who supports the troops the most. It's ****ing gay.
 
Unions don't have anything to do with outsourcing.

Outsourcing is when companies purchase non-core functions. For example, the office I work in outsources its' coffee production to
Starbucks.

Companies outsource because they can Chinese workers next to nothing,require them to work for 80 hours a week for that next to nothing pay and not have to worry about any worker and environmental safety laws. If unions were the problem then these companies would have moved to right to work states.

many of them did - that's why the right to work states have added jobs while the unionized states have lost them.

It could be argued that since you favor uncontrolled outsourcing that you favor helping communist and that you favor helping to fund the Chinese army

not really. that's why I favor balancing the budget - it is our interest payments that are going to fund the PLAN.

Amazing how die hard party-tard republicans claim to be patriotic and used to bash communist but now are globalist pieces of **** who support funding a communist government and military.
:roll:
 
The status quo of our heavily imbalanced trade with foreign nations creates more poverty by giving American jobs to the Chinese, instead of using our own domestic resources and people. Cheaper production is stealing American jobs, not creating them, and only benefits the corporate heads and large business owners. Maintaining this status quo is ****ing the lower classes over by reducing the amount of jobs and opportunities available to them.

That is incorrect. Cheaper production lowers the cost of living helping consumers, and most helping those who consume the largest portion of their income (the poor). By lowering the cost of living, consumers have increased disposable wealth, which leads to increased job formation. Those who claim that trade decreases wealth are forgetting the forest for the fallen tree.

Furthermore, I'm tired of all these bull**** appeals to the poor, as though the people who use these hollow attempts really give two ****s about the lower classes. It's no different than the political squabbles and chest beating politicians do to declare who supports the troops the most. It's ****ing gay.

:shrug: it's just worth pointing out that your proposed solution actually ****s over the people you claim to want to help.
 
no vote !
We need a balance, a compromise between the two to benefit our nation, NOT just the wealthy, but the middle class.
 
That is incorrect. Cheaper production lowers the cost of living helping consumers, and most helping those who consume the largest portion of their income (the poor). By lowering the cost of living, consumers have increased disposable wealth, which leads to increased job formation. Those who claim that trade decreases wealth are forgetting the forest for the fallen tree.



:shrug: it's just worth pointing out that your proposed solution actually ****s over the people you claim to want to help.

In that extremely narrow perspective, you are ONLY looking at people as consumers and not as full persons who must also earn a living so that they can then take that money and buy what they need. Yes, outsourcing manufacturing and using child labor in third world nations gives us cheaper toilet paper and toothpaste. And most folks like cheaper items at the store. But when doing so takes away jobs from Americans which would be paying them higher wages with good benefits and other fringes, the entire package is NOT a good bargain for working class people in America.
 
That is incorrect. Cheaper production lowers the cost of living helping consumers, and most helping those who consume the largest portion of their income (the poor). By lowering the cost of living, consumers have increased disposable wealth, which leads to increased job formation. Those who claim that trade decreases wealth are forgetting the forest for the fallen tree.



:shrug: it's just worth pointing out that your proposed solution actually ****s over the people you claim to want to help.
I don't care about the poor either way. What I do care about is bringing production and industry back into the United States.
 
Interesting to see 'conservatives' who hate government intervention in so many areas but want the Gubmint who can't get anything right to step in and run the private sector economy and it just isn't Healthcare but major sectors of what is left of our industries. Throw free market and the invisible hand under the bus. Cast aside the Captains of Industry- our semi-sacred Job Creators (hallowed be thy name)

Cursing Unions for making US workers cost 'too much',(never mind Unions are so small a part of our workforce), then cursing the Chinee for working for 20 some cents an hour.

Why does it always have to be one extreme or the other? Never a compromise, never a blend. We seem locked into a system where we vote and run to one side of the boat and then frantically to the otherside. We can't set a middle course bearing because if we were paying attention it is the straight line and far more efficient than building and then tearing down one economic/political house of cards and then another.

China, India and whoever else gets their economic act together will rise, there is nothing to say their rate of growth has to be as fast as possible( Ummmm didn't we learn anything by our cycles of boom and bust? Can't an aircraft stall if it's angle of attack to too great?)

Labor intensive industry is best suited for nations where labor is cheap, but when it comes to call centers and outsourcing some of the more technical side of industry not every US company is happy with India. My wife is starting a 5 year project because an insurance company isn't happy with the product coming from an Indian based company. Some folks learn the stove is hot if you tell them and some have to touch the stove a few times... :)

Perhaps the much maligned Gubmint can help tamp down the economic upheaval as our nation stops being a industry heavy one to a service and financial one.

It is very interesting a protected service as our energy system has finally felt a bit of the pain the private sector, to include Union staffed ones, have for years. I guess the water is getting high enough to touch some more nuts! It's viva the free market until the pink slips start flowing at MY place of emplyment! :roll:

My cousin works for a semi major electric provider in Northern Oklahoma, he often tells his co-workers they should thank the Gods their industry is so regulated, heaven help them if it wasn't, they don't know what hard work is, but they just might find out! :shock:

I remember when railroad train crews went from 4 men to 3 and then down to 2. The George Jetson progress we thought would be so wonderful has an ugly side, we don't need so many people in the workforce. Where will they work? Just what 'industry' will the Gubmint create to absorb the surplus workers? Spoons for everyone?

We laughed long and hard at the 'make work' factories of the old Soviet Union, but it seems that is just what some would have us do, seal ourselves off behind an Iron Curtain with a closed economic loop. It didn't work for them and it won't work for us.

OIL- drill baby drill wouldn't create an extra day's worth. The much scoffed at solar and wind power?

We import wheat, lumber, aluminum, canola oil, and electricity from Canada alone!

Somewhere there is a balance between the 'hard working Americans' you know personally and those overpaid lazy bastards you don't.

Between a healthy economy and one that makes work even if ineffective.

Between a Gubmint/industry coop and a cabal...
 
In that extremely narrow perspective, you are ONLY looking at people as consumers and not as full persons who must also earn a living so that they can then take that money and buy what they need.

That is incorrect - the increase in productivity that comes with trade is an employment boon.

Yes, outsourcing manufacturing and using child labor in third world nations gives us cheaper toilet paper and toothpaste. And most folks like cheaper items at the store. But when doing so takes away jobs from Americans which would be paying them higher wages with good benefits and other fringes, the entire package is NOT a good bargain for working class people in America.

That is incorrect as well. We become wealthier when we trade with each other, just as you are wealthier because you do not grow all your own food.
 
I don't care about the poor either way. What I do care about is bringing production and industry back into the United States.


It never left. U.S. Manufacturing Remains World’s Largest


There is no better reason for us to be an economy that produces our own toothpaste than there is for you to be a person who makes his own auto tires. If that's our strength, great. If not, we should maximize our productive strengths.
 
It never left. U.S. Manufacturing Remains World’s Largest


There is no better reason for us to be an economy that produces our own toothpaste than there is for you to be a person who makes his own auto tires. If that's our strength, great. If not, we should maximize our productive strengths.



The growth of U.S. trade with China since China entered the World Trade Organization in 2001 has had a devastating effect on U.S. workers and the domestic economy. Between 2001 and 2007 2.3 million jobs were lost or displaced, including 366,000 in 2007 alone. New demographic research shows that, even when re-employed in non-traded industries, the 2.3 million workers displaced by the increase in China trade deficits in this period have lost an average $8,146 per worker/year. In 2007, these losses totalled $19.4 billion.1

The impacts of the China trade deficit are not limited to its direct effects on the jobs and wages of those displaced. It is also critical to recognize that the indirect impact of trade on other workers is significant as well. Trade with less-developed countries has reduced the bargaining power of all workers in the U.S. economy who resemble the import-displaced in terms of education, credentials, and skills. Annual earnings for all workers without a four-year college degree are roughly $1,400 lower today because of this competition, and this group constitutes a large majority of the entire U.S. workforce (roughly 100 million workers or about 70% of all workers, Bivens (2008a)). China, with nearly 40% of our non-oil imports from less-developed countries, is a chief contributor to this wage pressure.


The China trade toll: Widespread wage suppression, 2 million jobs lost in the U.S. | Economic Policy Institute
 
It never left. U.S. Manufacturing Remains World’s Largest


There is no better reason for us to be an economy that produces our own toothpaste than there is for you to be a person who makes his own auto tires. If that's our strength, great. If not, we should maximize our productive strengths.
Not only does the US lead the industrialized world in manufacturing, the cause of the slight dip in stateside manufacturing has been grossly misrepresented. Also, manufacturing output is increasing at a steady rate, while employment in mentioned fields is shrinking at a faster pace in dreaded China than here stateside (China lost approximately 15 million manufacturing positions between 1995 and 2002). It seems apparent that the real culprit for the widespread loss in manufacturing related employment would be technology and efficiency, not a seemingly sudden deficit in patriotism, yet a large amount of Americans are apparently in denial about the bleak prospects of manufacturing accounting for a significant percentage of the total work force in the foreseeable future.

That Giant Sucking Sound of Manufacturing Jobs Going to China - Forbes
 
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