View Poll Results: Is access to health care a privilege, right or responsibility?

Voters
111. You may not vote on this poll
  • Privilege

    26 23.42%
  • Right

    49 44.14%
  • Responsibility

    39 35.14%
  • Other

    31 27.93%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 9 of 42 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 413

Thread: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

  1. #81
    Sage
    SmokeAndMirrors's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    RVA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    18,174

    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    There was a vast amount of social mobility prior to the acceptance of the idea that health care is a right. It's not a right, and if it is a right, then where is the responsibility of people not to have children they can't take care of? If I had some responsibility in the birth of that child, then I would have a responsibility to insure it was taken care of, and had health care. Nobody owes someone else, just as a right of birth. As it stands, people can just keep churning out babies, and the taxpayer is expected (and forced) to pick up the tab for the irresponsibility of others. That is what is irrational.
    What are you talking about? Social mobility in this country went down the tubes a couple decades ago, right when insurance prices really took off and left more people without any medical care at all.

    Furthermore, even when social mobility is easier, it still takes time. You can work as hard as you like, and it still won't happen overnight. So essentially, you're proposing to punish people simply for being poor, even if they're working hard to improve their situation.

    People are having fewer children than ever. And while I agree loopholes need to be closed as much as possible, what would you propose we do about those who slip through? Punish their children by denying them medical care? What did the children do wrong?

  2. #82
    Guru
    Aberration's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 08:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    4,699

    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Um, what are you talking about? Hostage takers?

    They are, after a fashion. Even the weak ones who can't provide for themselves bring out an important aspect of society. We are better as a people, and more ethical in general, the more we take care of the weak ones. Societies that care the least are the worst to live in.

    In your scenario, yes, I'd save the person I knew better. And the reason is because, ethically, it makes no difference who I save. Unless I know that one of them is some sort of serial killer or something, they are equals. I can't save both, so I must pick one. I would pick the one who would hurt the least for me to lose. Because ethically, there is no clear-cut answer, so I can decide for whatever arbitrary reasons I like. Either way, I will lose one of them.



    Again, what are you talking about?

    If you hate this society so much, leave. That's the choice you have. I don't. I like it here. It could be a lot better, but at this point in human history, this is where we are. And when I say, "I like it here," I don't mean America in the generic. I like Minnesota, because it's a state that functions very well and takes extraordinary care of its people.

    Almost everyone does contribute something. The people who don't are few, and I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt in order to provide for the overwhelming majority who contribute. We can never totally eliminate people who take advantage or cause harm, but that's a crappy reason to punish the majority.

    So if someone else does not like it, they should leave. But when you do not like it, you try and change it.

    And hold on, this whole healthcare thing does nothing but benefit a minority at the expense of the majority.

    But you would have to not buy into the whole 99% to understand that. You would have to not buy into adding 40M people will decrease your costs.
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
    ― Thomas Jefferson

  3. #83
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:04 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    8,180

    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    So an 18-year-old born into poverty is just an irresponsible moocher if he doesn't have that? That makes great sense.
    There are some extremely unfortunate 18-year olds out there who get sick and die. It's true. And it's true for every other age. Whatever we're going to decide is the age of adulthood means that everyone abruptly turns from minor dependent to independent responsible adult. Maybe parents will want to set their 18-yr olds up with an easy way to remain insured. Maybe not. But it still doesn't entitle a person to another person's wealth or income. The fact that you can come up with an unfair scenario does not make a good case for entitlement to the property of others.

    Some people's means are still not high enough to save much even if they cut things down to the bare bones, and moving up the ladder takes time. Sometimes it still doesn't happen even then.
    I know.

    Yours is a completely nonsensical way of viewing the reality of social mobility and responsibility.
    Do you know what would happen if we "let people die?"

    Ultimately many others would not go broke buying medical care. And do you know why? Because overpriced medical care wouldn't sell in the marketplace, and the people trying to sell it wouldn't be able to make ends meet. There would be massive incentive to find a way to offer medical help to people that they could actually afford to pay for.

  4. #84
    Guru
    Aberration's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 08:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    4,699

    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    What are you talking about? Social mobility in this country went down the tubes a couple decades ago, right when insurance prices really took off and left more people without any medical care at all.

    Furthermore, even when social mobility is easier, it still takes time. You can work as hard as you like, and it still won't happen overnight. So essentially, you're proposing to punish people simply for being poor, even if they're working hard to improve their situation.

    People are having fewer children than ever. And while I agree loopholes need to be closed as much as possible, what would you propose we do about those who slip through? Punish their children by denying them medical care? What did the children do wrong?
    The children did nothing wrong. But they are also not being punished.
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
    ― Thomas Jefferson

  5. #85
    Sage
    lizzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    between two worlds
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,581

    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    What are you talking about? Social mobility in this country went down the tubes a couple decades ago, right when insurance prices really took off and left more people without any medical care at all.

    ?
    Social mobility is still alive and well, if you plan for the future, and do what it takes to move upward. What has declined is work ethic and ambition.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post

    Furthermore, even when social mobility is easier, it still takes time. You can work as hard as you like, and it still won't happen overnight. So essentially, you're proposing to punish people simply for being poor, even if they're working hard to improve their situation.
    No, it doesn't happen overnight, thus the need to think about your future before you make poor choices. It's not punishing someone to let them live with the choices they make. They are the ones who made those choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    People are having fewer children than ever. And while I agree loopholes need to be closed as much as possible, what would you propose we do about those who slip through? Punish their children by denying them medical care? What did the children do wrong?
    It's not punishing the children. The parents of those children are the ones who are doing the disservice. If I had no participating role in the childrens' birth, then the responsibility is not mine. If I forced them to have children against their will, then yes, I would bear some responsibility.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  6. #86
    Sage
    SmokeAndMirrors's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    RVA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    18,174

    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberration View Post
    So if someone else does not like it, they should leave. But when you do not like it, you try and change it.

    And hold on, this whole healthcare thing does nothing but benefit a minority at the expense of the majority.

    But you would have to not buy into the whole 99% to understand that. You would have to not buy into adding 40M people will decrease your costs.
    Huh? I'm not saying what they should or shouldn't do. If they want to check out, they should. If I want to check out, I should. And anyone should have the right to do that in a straightforward manner without worrying about implicating their loved ones or suffering afterwards if they're rescued against their will. But they should also feel free to try and change it. It's about choice.

    It benefits a great number of people. Even most of the middle class can't afford their own health care. My mother's a pretty successful small business owner and she is what some might consider wealthy. Guess what? She can't afford her own insurance anymore due to her age and her existing health conditions.

    I volunteered for her to drop mine a few years ago, because she needs it more. But she still couldn't pull it off. She dropped her own a year ago, and at 62, it's not like she's getting any healthier. Even some people who are well-to-do can't afford their own insurance.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 06-30-12 at 12:59 AM.

  7. #87
    Sage
    SmokeAndMirrors's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    RVA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    18,174

    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Social mobility is still alive and well, if you plan for the future, and do what it takes to move upward. What has declined is work ethic and ambition.
    Alive, yes. Well, no. I am an extremely driven person, to the point where I will often forget to do things like sleep, and I am slowly inching my way forward. But it has not been without a little help. I wouldn't be getting anywhere if it weren't for my own drive, but I also wouldn't be getting anywhere if I had just been left at sea. It takes both to move forward in this country. And I've been lucky. Hardworking, but also lucky.

    No, it doesn't happen overnight, thus the need to think about your future before you make poor choices. It's not punishing someone to let them live with the choices they make. They are the ones who made those choices.
    So you're ok with letting driven, ambitious, hardworking people simply die because they hadn't quite made it yet at the point when they got sick? How does that make sense?

    It's not punishing the children. The parents of those children are the ones who are doing the disservice. If I had no participating role in the childrens' birth, then the responsibility is not mine. If I forced them to have children against their will, then yes, I would bear some responsibility.
    There are lots of places that are run like that, and we call them third world countries. You can't have a developed society where you ignore the needs of others. You just wind up with feudalism. What you're saying is completely antithetical to social mobility, and in fact, people like you are the reason social mobility is getting harder in this country.

    If you are forced to live in terrible conditions simply for being born poor, you won't live long enough to dig yourself out. Even if you do, you'll be so under educated that there's just no chance. You don't seem to understand how this works. The only reason you didn't die decades ago (if my approximate estimate of your age is correct) is because of the cohesive society you were born into and hate so much.

  8. #88
    Basketball Nerd
    StillBallin75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vilseck, Germany
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    21,896

    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I hope this is pretty self explanatory. What do you think? This'll be multiple choice and I'll include an "other". Give me a sec to get the poll up.
    In my opinion it's a right, much as a primary education (and some would argue even a secondary education) should be a right. That said, taking care of one's own body, i.e. exercising and making healthy diet choices is a personal responsibility, just like studying hard and trying to get good grades is a personal responsibility.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #89
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 12:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,185

    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    All the above, to varying degrees and in varying circumstances.


    In a sense it is a right... no one should be denied a lifesaving medical proceedure without a very good reason. (ie a million dollars worth of expensive treatment, along with the time and labor of dozens of highly educated professionals, to give you six more months of life when you don't have insurance nor a million dollars might be just a smidge unreasonable).

    In a sense it is a privilege.... top notch medical care is expensive and consumes heavy resources (among them a limited pool of highly-educated labor) and there isn't enough for everyone to consume all they might wish... so a lot of things have to be rationed in some way, either by "can you afford this proceedure" or some other method.

    In a sense it is a responsibility... you know healthcare is expensive... if you run around with no insurance and suddenly need $200,000 in medical treatment... yeah we'll treat you but you may end up losing everything you own because of the bills.

    What's the answer? Well I'm not sure but I don't think Obamacare is the way. For starters I'd like to see free and open interstate competition for rates, and more rates-based competition period... I think it would drive prices down. For instance, my colonoscopy, covered by insurance, cost $11,000 for a proceedure taking less than 2 hours. (two decades ago, the same proceedure was less than $2k.) Contrariwise, basic liposuction (which proceedure is typically NOT covered by insurance and paid for by the purchaser) runs about $5k to start.... a lot of elective, cosmetic proceedures cost LESS than a lot of medically necessary ones despite being more invasive, and the reason appears to be that when insurance doesn't cover something people shop around for the best price, thus driving competition-by-rates and reducing costs.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #90
    Guru
    Smeagol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Last Seen
    02-19-17 @ 11:35 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,147

    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Tough one. I voted privileged but so are clean drinking water, food, shelter, clothing, electricity, etc. This not a right IMHO in the same sense as the right to read or speak because IMHO you cannot have a "right" to something somebody else has to provide. At the same time, in the greatest country in the history of man its reasonable to expect that the best healthcare available to all of its citizens though some reasonable means. I'll also say Obamacare isn't perfect but its a start that can and should be tweaked but its a decent start and better than nothing. Even the Constitution of the United States as good of a start that was, has had numerous amendments over time.

    IMHO the biggest problem with Obamacare is I don't like the employer based aspect of healthcare delivery. I don't want my boss telling me I have to shop at Wal-Mart when I'd rather have the choice to choose between Wal-Mart or Target or some other store. If Wal-Mart ticks me off I want to power to walk right out of the door and take my business to K-Mart. Likewise, if Bluecross ticks me off or even the doctors in Bluecross' network, I want to be able to walk without having a huge impact on my health of my ability to afford healthcare. Other problems too but I hope to offer recommendations as a citizen in the future. Thank God we live in a country where we as citizens can offer our input.

Page 9 of 42 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •