View Poll Results: Is access to health care a privilege, right or responsibility?

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  • Privilege

    26 23.42%
  • Right

    49 44.14%
  • Responsibility

    39 35.14%
  • Other

    31 27.93%
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Thread: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

  1. #61
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    Contribute, I agree, but who wants to help people when the governemnt is already taxing the crap out of you for these purposes, I dont have to mention that were in this situation because of government involvement.
    I still want to help people and contribute which is why I think the government should find a better, more efficient, way to do it than it is now. I have certain things that I consider essential for a government in a civilized society to provide. Healthcare is one of them. Consequently, if the problem that prevents us from providing healthcare has anything to do with the poor behavior of the government, then that behavior should be fixed, but the end goal of providing healthcare should not be eliminated.

  2. #62
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    I don't need a pat on the head. I don't do it for recognition. I am aware there are selfish jerks out there. I'm also aware that the decent people vastly outnumber them.
    That's nice as long as you're elite.

    As one of those weak people, however, you're not likely to come across nice people. You're likely to just stumble across one selfish jerk after the next.

    Uh, no, that's stupid. Society tries to preserve itself. Causing more death than necessary as a token gesture is not a good way of doing that.
    Society is a qualitative, not a quantitative, identity. You don't count society as meaningful because of a particular number of people in it. You count society as meaningful because of the people in it.

    They can do things like that now, for other reasons. Everything has the risk of abuse. Everything. That tiny risk does not justify punishing the majority.

    I see a trend in your inane arguments. You are routinely willing to make more people suffer in order to avoid some either totally imaginary or relatively insignificant problem. That is ridiculous.
    Where have I mentioned making people suffer?

    The goal is to prevent suffering by holding people responsible for their actions. That way, we mitigate risk by keeping things organized.

    Without organization, justification can't exist.

  3. #63
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Good question. It gets to the theoretical foundations at the heart of a lot arguments happening now.

    It depends on the standard you're judging it against. When I judge it against the state of the entire world currently and the state of humanity in history, I think of healthcare as a privilege. When I judge it against my standard for what should be made a "human right," then I think of healthcare as a right. When I judge it against what I think the duties of government are, then I think of it as a responsibility.

    In short, it's all three things to me depending on where I'm looking at it. It's a right that governments have the responsibility to provide for their citizens and it's a privilege to be in a country where it's possible to live up that responsibility.
    TPD, you raise an interesting point. When I mentioned "responsibility", I was thinking of the responsibilities of the person, but I certainly left the interpretation wide open and you, very validly, spoke about what you believe to be the responsibilities of the government. Honestly, that was not a perspective I even considered.

  4. #64
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    That's nice as long as you're elite.

    As one of those weak people, however, you're not likely to come across nice people. You're likely to just stumble across one selfish jerk after the next.
    No, it's a good way to live no matter what you are. I am certainly not anything close to being one of the elite. I've been very poor for most of my adult life, I'm certainly not rich even now, and at times I am also one of the weak people. I'm back in PT due to RSI. I've struggled with it on-and-off since I was 16.

    I come across nice people all the time. You choose not to see them.

    Society is a qualitative, not a quantitative, identity. You don't count society as meaningful because of a particular number of people in it. You count society as meaningful because of the people in it.
    And if there are none, then there's no point. Saving those you can is better than just killing them all for no reason. It's almost ridiculous that you need to be told this.

    Where have I mentioned making people suffer?

    The goal is to prevent suffering by holding people responsible for their actions. That way, we mitigate risk by keeping things organized.

    Without organization, justification can't exist.
    You're willing to coerce other people on the assumption doctors can't be trusted even though you just said that it's wrong to coerce people. You're willing to cause more people to die, and your justification for it is that it's better for everyone to die in a futile effort to save them, than to make a more focused effort and ACTUALLY save some of them.

    You are obviously coming at this from sort sort of pessimistic, contrarian mood you're in, and I'm pretty much done with it. Come back when you've got your head sorted out.

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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    No, it's a good way to live no matter what you are. I am certainly not anything close to being one of the elite. I've been very poor for most of my adult life, I'm certainly not rich even now, and at times I am also one of the weak people. I'm back in PT due to RSI. I've struggled with it on-and-off since I was 16.

    I come across nice people all the time. You choose not to see them.
    By elite, I was referring to informed, not wealthy.

    You're also assuming people aren't looking. Many people look, but just get unlucky. Heck, many people are selfish jerks just because they enjoy taking advantage of how others are looking. By constantly pressuring the unlucky, they prevent the unlucky from having attention to spare elsewhere because they have to defend themselves.

    And if there are none, then there's no point. Saving those you can is better than just killing them all for no reason. It's almost ridiculous that you need to be told this.
    There is a point. It shows that you committed yourself to the bitter end and didn't give up just because things were difficult.

    Camaraderie leaves nobody behind.

    You're willing to coerce other people on the assumption doctors can't be trusted even though you just said that it's wrong to coerce people. You're willing to cause more people to die, and your justification for it is that it's better for everyone to die in a futile effort to save them, than to make a more focused effort and ACTUALLY save some of them.

    You are obviously coming at this from sort sort of pessimistic, contrarian mood you're in, and I'm pretty much done with it. Come back when you've got your head sorted out.
    I haven't coerced anyone. Literally, I'm not supporting public goods. Black is not white.

    I'm not pessimistic. I'm optimistic that people don't need to be organized like drones, but can organize ourselves.

  6. #66
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Access is such a rediculous term. We all NOW have access to the grocery store, the problem occurs only at the checkout point, when that store expects payment for your cartload of groceries. Some pay with funds that they earned by working, others with their SNAP cards.

    We all NOW have access to medical care providers, yet they too seem to expect payment, some pay with funds that they earned by working, or perhaps with help of insurance provided by their employer or purchased by them, others have Medicaid or Medicare benefits to use. All NOW have access to many goods and services, what all do not have, is enough EARNED money to buy all that they may want.

    What ObamaCare seeks to do, is to use smoke and mirrors to change the rules to require "leveling" of private premiums (no more strictly risk based premiums), adding more medicaid "eligability" and creating "exchanges" (tax subsidized discount pools) of "leftover folks" that have neither bought insurance nor qualified for FULL gov't assistance.

    We all need food, clothing and shelter yet they are NOT rights, we are all expected to work to provide them for ourselves and our dependents. The more goods and sevices that are turned into "rights" the less that work will be required. Soon work will be required only to buy the occasionally desired luxuries, as all else seems to gradually becoming a "right" provided by simply asking the gov't to give it to you. To "qualify" you must only show "need" (a sob story) or perhaps have a cute little dependent handy.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-29-12 at 10:30 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #67
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    It's commodity that has to be paid for. It's not a right, and it's a responsibility for those who value their own health, if they wish to receive health care benefits.
    You are not owed health care by birthright.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    When I judge it against my standard for what should be made a "human right," then I think of healthcare as a right. When I judge it against what I think the duties of government are, then I think of it as a responsibility.

    In short, it's all three things to me depending on where I'm looking at it. It's a right that governments have the responsibility to provide for their citizens and it's a privilege to be in a country where it's possible to live up that responsibility.
    So you do not believe you have a right to private property and you do believe that plunder should be a way of life. You are just confused over whether you should have to do the plundering yourself or have the government to it on your behalf.

    Got it.

  9. #69
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Health care is a right of children and those adjudicated to be unable to make their own legal (hence economic) decisions.

    Otherwise it is simply a service/commodity that costs money.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 06-29-12 at 10:38 PM.

  10. #70
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    I am gobsmacked that this discussion is ongoing in a modern, developed society. Nowhere else in the developed world is there any question that health care is the right of the citizen, and that society must make arrangements to provide it universally, and at no cost at the point of delivery. Tall buildings and aircraft carriers do not a civilisation make.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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