View Poll Results: Is access to health care a privilege, right or responsibility?

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  • Privilege

    26 23.42%
  • Right

    49 44.14%
  • Responsibility

    39 35.14%
  • Other

    31 27.93%
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Thread: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

  1. #361
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    It's only a challenge for people who think debt matters and that we can't spend increasing amounts of money indefinitely without consequence. For people who think money and public credit has no limits, nothing is a challenge... everything becomes really simple. The belief in these universal medical care entitlements is rooted in the failure to recognize the limits of public credit and the eventual risks of inflation.

    Medicare, for example, has been around for almost 50 years now. That does not change a thing about the havoc it's wreaking on the country financially, even though you could point to its longevity and allege it's stood "the test of time."
    I repeat, I am not simply addressing the American situation, your systems, or your national finances. I am addressing the OP as designated, and in the conceptual sense.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

  2. #362
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You largely miss the actual arguments. You also can't seem to distinquish between political rhethoric both sides use and actual arguments.

    As for taxes, no, you pay no tax unless you refuse to be insured. So, a general tax has not been passed. You're misrepresnting the issue for partisan reasons, as best I can tell.

    Also, I have not been silent. I have answered you. You have not replied back that I know of. But I have answered you.
    You don't consider a government mandate to purchase something a tax?
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  3. #363
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    And which chains might those be. Don't be shy - I'm a Brit, we can take it. Just point out the freedoms you enjoy that we do not - let the chips fall where they may. Or can you not actually find any?
    You answer it in the initial question you asked. The right to keep and bear arms. You basically stated, except this huge and obvious thing, what freedoms do you Americans enjoy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    I don't know how many times I need to make this point - but I am discussing the topic as designated - Health Care; Privilege, Right or Responsibility. I am not discussing the Constitution of the United States, or the health care laws of the US, nor am I concerned with the distinctions of your state and federal legislation. If the topic had been designated Health Care in the USA, these matters might have had some relevance.
    Then don't ask questions about Police and Firefighter which is what I was answering. Don't ask an off topic question and then complained because you are given an off topic answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    The need for medical attention across the world is not dictated by deliberate unhealthy lifestyles, nor do I believe this is so in the USA (despite your level of obesity). Disease, accidents, genetic abnormalities, all require medical intervention. To argue that the healthy at any given point in time are being penalised by contributing to a medical system which provides for the entire citizenry, simply makes no sense. Given that the social contract requires us all to contribute, via taxation, to the welfare of society in which we live, how can you logically argue this?
    "the social contract" which Social contract would that be? Where I live (The United States) the only taxing authority I am subject to the the United States Government, my state, and my county. These entities have only limited authority to tax me and Healthcare is not one of those enumerated items. So what exactly are you talking about?
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  4. #364
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    I repeat, I am not simply addressing the American situation, your systems, or your national finances. I am addressing the OP as designated, and in the conceptual sense.
    So how is it that one person can be guaranteed a right to something that can ONLY be provided by another person.
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  5. #365
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    So how is it that one person can be guaranteed a right to something that can ONLY be provided by another person.
    See my comments about the social contract (which exists in all societies, whether you subscribe to the notion or not). The US is no different from any other society governed by the rule of law, and taxation remains the price of civilisation.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

  6. #366
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    You don't consider a government mandate to purchase something a tax?
    The penlty is a tax.

    I consider you buying insurance your personal responsibility, and if you don't do it, passing your error in judgment on to the rest of us, I think you should be penalized.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #367
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The penlty is a tax.

    I consider you buying insurance your personal responsibility, and if you don't do it, passing your error in judgment on to the rest of us, I think you should be penalized.
    Personally I don't care if it is a penalty or a tax. It is going to happen either way. Like with social security.

  8. #368
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Personally I don't care if it is a penalty or a tax. It is going to happen either way. Like with social security.
    Well, the aprtisan is going to beat the tax drum to death, and then beat it some more. This is what we pass as political debate today.

    I still hope they will go back to work and more toward something better; if not UHC (single payer hybred), at least a public option.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #369
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Well, the aprtisan is going to beat the tax drum to death, and then beat it some more. This is what we pass as political debate today.

    I still hope they will go back to work and more toward something better; if not UHC (single payer hybred), at least a public option.
    That is all PPACA is, as there is no private option. PPACA converts all "private" medical care insurance into the public "option", since NO plan may NOT offer the new mandated minimum and maximum benefits, may not charge premiums based on risk (outside of the new and LIMITTED age and smoking factors) and may not limit out of pocket costs.

    We all KNOW that medical care is NOW about 18% of GDP, yet between 2% and 9.5% of income may be charged as insurance premiums. You can not make a $100 medical care procedure magically cost $50 by simply mandating it, as medicare and medicaid pretend to do. What other "private" business is told that they MUST accept some non-paying customers and to simply eat those costs or spread them among their paying customers?

    PPACA is pure accounting magic and wishfull thinking. We are told to simply believe that adding 15% more customers, most of them not paying anything at all, to the same number of care providers will lower the costs of all users of medical care AND not diminish the quality/quantity of care for all. Nobody will look at the REAL results of RomneyCare in MA and see that simple reality; calling all people insured does NOT make them so. Yes he did!
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #370
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The penlty is a tax.

    I consider you buying insurance your personal responsibility, and if you don't do it, passing your error in judgment on to the rest of us, I think you should be penalized.
    You SAY that yet likely do not DO that. Pretending that what your employer bought (plus many more "free" mandates) will do someone with NO job, or extra income, to pay the co-pay or deductable amounts will "help" them is pure fantasy. This is why many providers will NOT accept medicaid or medicare patients NOW. That will be the NEXT mandate, that ALL providers accept all "patients" whether they pay or not, just like ER facilities must now do. Even federal employees pay only 25% of their own medical care insurance premiums out of their taxable pay. Pretending that 9.5% of your taxable pay covers ALL of your medical care costs does not make it so, yet some, at the lowest end, will pay no more than 2% under PPACA; just where do you think that the rest of that bill will fall?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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