View Poll Results: Is access to health care a privilege, right or responsibility?

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  • Privilege

    26 23.42%
  • Right

    49 44.14%
  • Responsibility

    39 35.14%
  • Other

    31 27.93%
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Thread: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

  1. #151
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I see moral and societal obligation as the same thing in this case.
    Would you be upset if the Federal Government mandated you (and everyone else) took out an Adjustable Rate Mortgage on a home?

    We have just been chained by federal mandate to this cost-expansive industry, and this deceptively named "affordable care act" will directly make health CARE more costly, and all you have is... ... and chalk it up to "such is modern society?"

  2. #152
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Would you be upset if the Federal Government mandated you (and everyone else) took out an Adjustable Rate Mortgage on a home?

    We have just been chained by federal mandate to this cost-expansive industry, and this deceptively named "affordable care act" will directly make health CARE more costly, and all you have is... ... and chalk it up to "such is modern society?"
    Of course, but such regulation would make little sense. Now if the government mandated I do something that actually served a purpose, probably not even if doing so was uncomfortable. In the end its all about balance, if its a small thing for a big gain sure, if its a big thing with little or no gain than no, if its balanced, maybe, it depends on the situation.

    Now in terms of the specific issue, I am against the ACA due to reasons already stated, small gain here.

  3. #153
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I see moral and societal obligation as the same thing in this case.
    I don't see how. If someone is independent their life has no bearing on anyone else's, yes, if a young child would be left without a parent it could plausibly effect them in a way that could negatively effect society, but even with care children lose parents. Society has a right not to be victimized, but those who go without care don't do that.



    All I can say is your "right to self defense is the key to all other rights" think about that for a minute. Its the ability to inflict violence that creates space for everything else. Now this doesn't mean that someone should because they can, but that is how it works and no rights do not exist in a vacuum, they are dependent on natural things like everything else in life.
    It wasn't a key, simply an example of that which exists regardless of governance. The only thing society can do is judge whether an action was done within the scope of that right, defense was the strongest example of that due to the fact that an action could be judged as either legal or illegal by a jury, however the truth and the verdict could potentially diverge. Now, let's take things to it's simplist and create a hypothetical anarchy, someone tries to coerce another to give up a right, such as property with the threat of force, however the person upholding their right gets the upper hand, at that point the right is upheld, if he fails it's infringed but the right was always there. To bring this to it's basics, society can only infringe upon rights, never grant them.


    You are right. Then we would lose a whole host of rights and it would totally suck.
    Ah, but wait, no rights would be lost however the mechanisms to exercise some of them would dissappear. It would most definitely suck but in that chaos the best and brightest would eventually figure out the techniques and start the rebuilding process provided people would still know how to survive. The entire point was that rights are always there, even under the most dire circumstances.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  4. #154
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    You are trying to pretty up the theft. Who is obligated to pay for your healthcare? Is it the person across the street? And why would anyone other than you be obligated to pay for something you want?

    Is the level of plunder determined by how much you want something? Do you get a warm and fuzzy when you think about the people who are plundered so you can have something you want but are unwilling to pay for? Why shouldn't people like you be declared dangerous to the rest of us and locked up? Theft is theft.
    I have to defend the statement on morality! It should be a moral obligation but, when government forces people to be moral it actually strips the individuals of their responsibility to be moral. Why do I want to help when the government already legally plunders my assets to achieve this goal! We go further and further in spending by the government to help people. What are the results so far? Has poverty gone down?! Has medical care cost gone down?!

  5. #155
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I don't see how. If someone is independent their life has no bearing on anyone else's, yes, if a young child would be left without a parent it could plausibly effect them in a way that could negatively effect society, but even with care children lose parents. Society has a right not to be victimized, but those who go without care don't do that.
    nobody is independent of one another except maybe that rare castaway on a desert island somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    It wasn't a key, simply an example of that which exists regardless of governance. The only thing society can do is judge whether an action was done within the scope of that right, defense was the strongest example of that due to the fact that an action could be judged as either legal or illegal by a jury, however the truth and the verdict could potentially diverge. Now, let's take things to it's simplist and create a hypothetical anarchy, someone tries to coerce another to give up a right, such as property with the threat of force, however the person upholding their right gets the upper hand, at that point the right is upheld, if he fails it's infringed but the right was always there. To bring this to it's basics, society can only infringe upon rights, never grant them.
    I understood your point, but disagreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Ah, but wait, no rights would be lost however the mechanisms to exercise some of them would dissappear. It would most definitely suck but in that chaos the best and brightest would eventually figure out the techniques and start the rebuilding process provided people would still know how to survive. The entire point was that rights are always there, even under the most dire circumstances.
    again, i disagree. It is plausable someone may gain rights in such a situation though if they are the first one to raid the remnants of the old gun store in town. Terrible situation though.

  6. #156
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Of course, but such regulation would make little sense. Now if the government mandated I do something that actually served a purpose, probably not even if doing so was uncomfortable. In the end its all about balance, if its a small thing for a big gain sure, if its a big thing with little or no gain than no, if its balanced, maybe, it depends on the situation.

    Now in terms of the specific issue, I am against the ACA due to reasons already stated, small gain here.
    Forgive my frustration, but if you had to pick which one of the following was the root of our health care problem, which would it be?

    A) People don't have health insurance (i.e. people cannot access pools of money for their health needs).

    B) Medical care is too expensive.

  7. #157
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    I have to defend the statement on morality! It should be a moral obligation but, when government forces people to be moral it actually strips the individuals of their responsibility to be moral. Why do I want to help when the government already legally plunders my assets to achieve this goal! We go further and further in spending by the government to help people. What are the results so far? Has poverty gone down?! Has medical care cost gone down?!
    To the bolded, exactly right which is why I wanted to make clear that there is a difference between moral and societal obligations. Under a moral obligation one must answer to their own conscience, under a societal one the individual must realize that there are minimum requirements to be in polite society such as obeying just laws, maintaining a minimum of civilized behavior, etc.

    I think it's dangerous to allow politicians and ideologies too much lattitude in declaring societal obligations however, it only takes a short period of overbearing lawmaking to shrink liberty.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    I have to defend the statement on morality! It should be a moral obligation but, when government forces people to be moral it actually strips the individuals of their responsibility to be moral. Why do I want to help when the government already legally plunders my assets to achieve this goal! We go further and further in spending by the government to help people. What are the results so far? Has poverty gone down?! Has medical care cost gone down?!
    What is a moral obligation?
    Should governments ever take from one citizen to give their property to another? If I used force as the government does would you see me as a moral agent working for good? or would you see me as I really am, a thief?

  9. #159
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    nobody is independent of one another except maybe that rare castaway on a desert island somewhere.
    Completely disagree. There are people who are overly dependent upon others, there are people who are independent but forced into dependency by others getting in their way, and there are people who truly don't need anyone(have seen them in the most rural of La.) etc. While it's true that everyone serves a purpose to others, it doesn't create an obligation, people perform to some kind of percieved value.


    I understood your point, but disagreed.
    That's your right, we'll have to diverge on that I guess.



    again, i disagree. It is plausable someone may gain rights in such a situation though if they are the first one to raid the remnants of the old gun store in town. Terrible situation though.
    Think about it this way. You won't gain rights by hording arms, you have two options though 1) use those arms to protect your own rights 2) use those arms to oppress others, subjugate their rights to your will.
    In the first scenario you have no more rights than you started with.......but no less. In the second scenario you have no more rights than you started with, but others would not have the ability to exercise theirs.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    What is a moral obligation?
    Should governments ever take from one citizen to give their property to another? If I used force as the government does would you see me as a moral agent working for good? or would you see me as I really am, a thief?
    Morals, my values of right and wrong. Obligation, my morals obligate me to help in any way possible only in a capacity that doesnt harm me. I am not a believer in altruism.

    No, government should not participate in legal plunder.

    If you use force then no.

    Yes you are a thief.

    My point was forcing the morals of others on others, has the effect of taking away the responsibility of the individual to actually have good morals. It leaves a bad taste in ones mouth being forced to do something against your will.

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