View Poll Results: Is access to health care a privilege, right or responsibility?

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  • Privilege

    26 23.42%
  • Right

    49 44.14%
  • Responsibility

    39 35.14%
  • Other

    31 27.93%
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Thread: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

  1. #141
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    I don't see it as a right so much as a moral obligation.

    Rights in and of themselves are what can be won through dominance. If someone can take it by force, they have won their right to it so long as they can defend it. Of course, few people want to live in that sort of society (I certainly don't as I would likely be much more poor, insecure, hungry, etc in that situation), but in terms of what is natural, that is how it works and consequently why some animals are predators.

    Luckily our morality is often quite different from the law of the jungle, as, we as a human race have realized that there are superior ways of organizing society which allow us to gain more wealth, security, freedom or autonomy, etc and allow us to work on interests that do not have immediate survival implications such as art, science, leisure, etc. As we get better and better at finding ways to remove ourselves from a survival situation, we march towards greater pleasure, happiness, fulfillment, and other things along maslow's hierarchy of needs. This is why I see it as a moral obligation, its the direction more and more successful societies inevitably move towards.

    However, this moral obligation needs to be balanced against available resources. At this time, I do not believe we have the necessary resources to be going after universal health case, so while it is a good and moral cause, its not realistic at this time. So on balance, I am not in favor of this legislation right now as we have more immediate priorities as a society.

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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I don't see it as a right so much as a moral obligation.
    You are trying to pretty up the theft. Who is obligated to pay for your healthcare? Is it the person across the street? And why would anyone other than you be obligated to pay for something you want?

    Is the level of plunder determined by how much you want something? Do you get a warm and fuzzy when you think about the people who are plundered so you can have something you want but are unwilling to pay for? Why shouldn't people like you be declared dangerous to the rest of us and locked up? Theft is theft.

  3. #143
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    What is sad is that you actually believe that stealing from your neighbors is a good thing.

    You try to pretty it up but it remains theft. You are a self-identified liberal. But you use Marxist words, "From each...to each" so it becomes clear what you really are.
    You wish I was stealing from you. It would give you a place to harbor all of that hate. But I pay and have paid all of my life. I just have a conscience and actually care about other people. You could work on that.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

  4. #144
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Because it's not worth it. The individual has no bargaining chip. You can say, "**** that bull**** I won't pay it" and they'll send you packing.
    That's precisely the mechanism that controls cost in every other industry.

    At least governmental and insurance agencies have the power to bargain over costs of procedures and medicines.
    This is not working to control the cost of our health care, in case you had not noticed.

    Much like many of our resources, healthcare should be a pool that we all pay into. Pooling of losses is an important aspect of society and it exists for a reason.
    When you pool a scarce resource, it still has to be rationed somehow. The government can't just promise ever-flowing revenue to these corporations, mandate they cover anyone and everyone, and expect to watch the price of health care go down. So why would they call it the "Affordable Care Act?" The answer to that is simple. It is a straight up deception.

    You just want to cut out a large portion of society who needs it more than you. That would make you the thief, buddy.
    By no stretch of the imagination is someone who advocates that people not be entitled to the services or property of others a thief. That takes some major irony and spin.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 07-01-12 at 05:10 PM.

  5. #145
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    You are trying to pretty up the theft. Who is obligated to pay for your healthcare? Is it the person across the street? And why would anyone other than you be obligated to pay for something you want?

    Is the level of plunder determined by how much you want something? Do you get a warm and fuzzy when you think about the people who are plundered so you can have something you want but are unwilling to pay for? Why shouldn't people like you be declared dangerous to the rest of us and locked up? Theft is theft.
    You are the one that sees it as theft, not me

    Heck, given my current situation, what I advocate is actually a financial disadvantage to me. So if I am stealing, than I am stealing from myself as well

    But such is the way of having a modern society, don't like it? not my problem.

  6. #146
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I don't see it as a right so much as a moral obligation.
    I disagree, but only to an extent. If one is not depended on by anyone, say, single, widowed, etc. and they do not have the desire to seek medical care they assume the risks upon themselves. Now, if someone is a primary income with young children or the owner of a company with many people depending on them it does change slighty on the moral scale, however this is not to be confused with a societal obligation.

    Rights in and of themselves are what can be won through dominance. If someone can take it by force, they have won their right to it so long as they can defend it. Of course, few people want to live in that sort of society (I certainly don't as I would likely be much more poor, insecure, hungry, etc in that situation), but in terms of what is natural, that is how it works and consequently why some animals are predators.
    Completely disagree, rights exist without any outside influence, they can be infringed by a less than honorable populace or government, but never granted. Look at the right of self defense, whether a government exists or not it is there and falls under the self evident truth of life. Rights exist in a vacuum, IOW, if our government banned all arms the right would still exist, but the government would necessarily have infringed upon it. We have the right to pursue happiness, but not the guarantee, we have the right to liberty, though many are getting in the way of the exercise. It's all about those things that exist, not what can be granted.

    Luckily our morality is often quite different from the law of the jungle, as, we as a human race have realized that there are superior ways of organizing society which allow us to gain more wealth, security, freedom or autonomy, etc and allow us to work on interests that do not have immediate survival implications such as art, science, leisure, etc. As we get better and better at finding ways to remove ourselves from a survival situation, we march towards greater pleasure, happiness, fulfillment, and other things along maslow's hierarchy of needs. This is why I see it as a moral obligation, its the direction more and more successful societies inevitably move towards.
    This is speaking to things that could dissappear in a heartbeat. If there were a catastrophic event wiping out governance, art would have little value, money none, science would be as effective as the tools present would allow, without infrastructure many advancements would go by the waistside. In an event where survival is the only thing rights still exist.
    Last edited by LaMidRighter; 07-01-12 at 05:13 PM.
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  7. #147
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    You wish I was stealing from you. It would give you a place to harbor all of that hate. But I pay and have paid all of my life. I just have a conscience and actually care about other people. You could work on that.
    You claim to have a conscience. Your position is immoral. It matters little that you claim you do not directly benefit from the plunder that was approved. Rather that patting yourself on the back for your conscience you should consider seeking some professional help as you are unable to discern right from wrong.

    If you actually cared about people, as you claim to, you would sell all that you have and donate the money you receive to pay for other peoples' health care. But you are a liberal. Merely thinking that you are superior is sufficient for you, as long as you can get the government to steal on your behalf.
    Last edited by Misterveritis; 07-01-12 at 05:20 PM.

  8. #148
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I disagree, but only to an extent. If one is not depended on by anyone, say, single, widowed, etc. and they do not have the desire to seek medical care they assume the risks upon themselves. Now, if someone is a primary income with young children or the owner of a company with many people depending on them it does change slighty on the moral scale, however this is not to be confused with a societal obligation.
    I see moral and societal obligation as the same thing in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Completely disagree, rights exist without any outside influence, they can be infringed by a less than honorable populace or government, but never granted. Look at the right of self defense, whether a government exists or not it is there and falls under the self evident truth of life. Rights exist in a vacuum, IOW, if our government banned all arms the right would still exist, but the government would necessarily have infringed upon it. We have the right to pursue happiness, but not the guarantee, we have the right to liberty, though many are getting in the way of the exercise. It's all about those things that exist, not what can be granted.
    All I can say is your "right to self defense is the key to all other rights" think about that for a minute. Its the ability to inflict violence that creates space for everything else. Now this doesn't mean that someone should because they can, but that is how it works and no rights do not exist in a vacuum, they are dependent on natural things like everything else in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    This is speaking to things that could dissappear in a heartbeat. If there were a catastrophic event wiping out governance, art would have little value, money none, science would be as effective as the tools present would allow, without infrastructure many advancements would go by the waistside. In an event where survival is the only thing rights still exist.
    You are right. Then we would lose a whole host of rights and it would totally suck.

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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You are the one that sees it as theft, not me
    Are you admitting that you have an inability to tell right from wrong?

    But such is the way of having a modern society, don't like it? not my problem.
    Yeah. I have never liked theft and have never liked slavery. But there it is...modern society and all.

    The saddest part is that those who think as you do cannot even see how dangerous it is for all of us, including yourselves.

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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Are you admitting that you have an inability to tell right from wrong?
    I can admit that your idea that you can assert moral stances to me is a bit silly. We all have our own view on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Yeah. I have never liked theft and have never liked slavery. But there it is...modern society and all.

    The saddest part is that those who think as you do cannot even see how dangerous it is for all of us, including yourselves.
    Welcome to modern society, I hope you grow up enough to appreciate it.

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