View Poll Results: Is access to health care a privilege, right or responsibility?

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  • Privilege

    26 23.42%
  • Right

    49 44.14%
  • Responsibility

    39 35.14%
  • Other

    31 27.93%
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Thread: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

  1. #91
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I think that in the USA, which still likes to think of itself as one of the richest and most powerful nations on the planet, that tens of millions of its own citizens have little to no access to medical care is appalling. Yes, people have a responsibility to provide for themselves and their families. But **** happens. When the family breadwinner is suddenly disabled, the government provides a safety net so they don't starve in the street. When people are too old to work, the government provides a safety net so they don't starve in the street. But when hard-working people whose employers don't offer health insurance find that premiums to cover their family would take 1/4 of the family's income are prevented from having access to necessary medical care, the government just shrugs and says, "Wait until you're dying, then you can die in an ER for free." That's just wrong. These 44 million uninsured people have a right to access medical care, and not have to die in order to get it.

    That said, I really don't like the current HCR that comes without a public plan and saddles working people with punitive "taxes" if they cannot find an affordable plan. The government isn't really offering low-cost insurance. It's telling insurance companies that they have to accept anyone who comes to them; of course, these insurance companies can charge whatever they want, and if folks can't afford it, they can pay their "taxes" instead.

    We just learned that the prescription and supplemental insurance we have had for 20+ years at the same annual premium is being increased 450%. That's astronomical! We can't afford that, and I'm not sure what on earth we're going to do.

    Yes, this country needs some form of Universal Health Care so that all of its citizens are provided with basic medical care, and the lucky ones can continue with their high-quality insurance policies. Someday nearly everyone will find themselves financially vulnerable, through job loss, catastrophic medical needs, disability, or just the crime of being old with a worn-out body. I believe the government has the responsibility to make sure these people retain the right to medical care.

    But I don't think HRC was the way to do it, and I think it's going to make things harder on the majority of Americans, not easier.
    I think we got what we got because there was no compromise. I would prefer universal/single payer as well.

    From everything I've read (and am reading) the insurance companies are not going to be allowed to charge whatever they want........as they've been able to do for so long.

    If you get the chance, do a search in both of the SCOTUS threads. Search for Kandahar. He's easy to read, polite and informed. He also provides quite a few links in his posts for reference.


    I would chat with her when I'm feeling particularly snarky, but I wouldn't ever call her on the phone.

  2. #92
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by missypea View Post
    From everything I've read (and am reading) the insurance companies are not going to be allowed to charge whatever they want........as they've been able to do for so long.
    Demonstrate support for this claim that insurance companies will not be able to continue raising their rates. Please and thanks.

    It's difficult to imagine they would not be able to charge whatever when their customer base is legally mandated.

  3. #93
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Huh? I'm not saying what they should or shouldn't do. If they want to check out, they should. If I want to check out, I should. And anyone should have the right to do that in a straightforward manner without worrying about implicating their loved ones or suffering afterwards if they're rescued against their will. But they should also feel free to try and change it. It's about choice.

    It benefits a great number of people. Even most of the middle class can't afford their own health care. My mother's a pretty successful small business owner and she is what some might consider wealthy. Guess what? She can't afford her own insurance anymore due to her age and her existing health conditions.

    I volunteered for her to drop mine a few years ago, because she needs it more. But she still couldn't pull it off. She dropped her own a year ago, and at 62, it's not like she's getting any healthier. Even some people who are well-to-do can't afford their own insurance.
    Actually you specifically did say they should leave. After twisting his words to make a claim he hated it.

    Sure it benefits a great deal. At the expense of even more. Most of the middle class? Got something to back that up? Because only ~40M did not have health insurance, and even if ALL of them were middle class it would not make up most of the middle class.

    That is how insurance works. Higher risk, higher premiums. That is the way it should work, or it will go bankrupt, or the services offered will have to be drastically diminished.

    Any well to do person who can't afford insurance, is in a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the population.
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
    ― Thomas Jefferson

  4. #94
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Alive, yes. Well, no. I am an extremely driven person, to the point where I will often forget to do things like sleep, and I am slowly inching my way forward. But it has not been without a little help. I wouldn't be getting anywhere if it weren't for my own drive, but I also wouldn't be getting anywhere if I had just been left at sea. It takes both to move forward in this country. And I've been lucky. Hardworking, but also lucky.
    Not true. I was left at sea and ended up quite well.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    So you're ok with letting driven, ambitious, hardworking people simply die because they hadn't quite made it yet at the point when they got sick? How does that make sense?
    I am. How does it not make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    There are lots of places that are run like that, and we call them third world countries. You can't have a developed society where you ignore the needs of others. You just wind up with feudalism. What you're saying is completely antithetical to social mobility, and in fact, people like you are the reason social mobility is getting harder in this country.
    Sweet, more fabricated rhetoric. We don't call them 3rd world countries because of that. But you know that. No one is ignoring the needs of others. Feudalism, you are just throwing out phrases. Social mobility is just another fabricated metric to support your position. The entire concept is antithetical to common sense. No, social mobility is getting harder because people are not productive enough. Mostly by their own decisions.

    If you are forced to live in terrible conditions simply for being born poor, you won't live long enough to dig yourself out. Even if you do, you'll be so under educated that there's just no chance. You don't seem to understand how this works. The only reason you didn't die decades ago (if my approximate estimate of your age is correct) is because of the cohesive society you were born into and hate so much.
    Wrong again. I was born in poor conditions. I could not play any sports in school. I could not have a bike, skateboard, or even ride my friends. Because my parents did not have insurance. The only reason I am not poor, is because I made a choice. The first person in my family to make that choice. And that was to go to school.

    What exactly did society do for me that kept me alive again? How did I manage to live long enough? How am I not under educated?
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
    ― Thomas Jefferson

  5. #95
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Demonstrate support for this claim that insurance companies will not be able to continue raising their rates. Please and thanks.

    It's difficult to imagine they would not be able to charge whatever when their customer base is legally mandated.
    Sorry, Neo. I'm too lazy. You can believe me or not
    or you can do the same thing I recommended to Di:

    If you get the chance, do a search in both of the SCOTUS threads. Search for Kandahar. He's easy to read, polite and informed. He also provides quite a few links in his posts for reference.


    I would chat with her when I'm feeling particularly snarky, but I wouldn't ever call her on the phone.

  6. #96
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by missypea View Post
    Sorry, Neo. I'm too lazy. You can believe me or not
    or you can do the same thing I recommended to Di:
    I don't blame you for being lazy, because I share plenty of my own thoughts without exhaustively and painstakingly sourcing and linking everything. BUT... I have to continue to challenge this thought that insurance companies can't continue jacking rates, because I've heard of no mechanism that would suggest any such thing. It's not that I don't want to believe you. I'd love to in fact.

    The individual mandate is the biggest barrier to the idea that insurance companies can't jack rates. Their customer base is federally guaranteed by the federal mandate. Most companies stand to lose huge numbers of customers when they jack the price. See what happened to Netflix last year?



    Some like to cite the 80/20 rule, whereby 80% of an insurance company's costs must go toward actual medical care (not overhead). You'd think this would be the magic ticket, but really it does not only fail to prevent rate-jacking, it encourages it. If customers at my coffeeshop are federally mandated to buy my coffee, and I"m required to spend 80% of my revenue on beans, it actually encourages me to charge more, to buffer my revenues, so that my 20% cut still makes me rich.

    The 26-yr old coverage provision is a cost-expander, which is another excuse to jack rates.

    The idea that companies can't exclude pre-existing conditions is yet another excuse to jack rates.

    It goes on and on. There is zero reason for any of us to guess or assume or hope that insurance companies can't keep jacking rates on us. After all, our last refuge (which is to say eff you I quit, as a customer) has now been federally prohibited.

    The burden of proof for your claim/hope/assumption still lies with you.

    Disclosure - I don't actually own a coffeeshop
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 06-30-12 at 02:13 AM.

  7. #97
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I don't blame you for being lazy, because I share plenty of my own thoughts without exhaustively and painstakingly sourcing and linking everything. BUT... I have to continue to challenge this thought that insurance companies can't continue jacking rates, because I've heard of no mechanism that would suggest any such thing. It's not that I don't want to believe you. I'd love to in fact.
    The burden of proof for your claim/hope/assumption still lies with you.

    Disclosure - I don't actually own a coffeeshop
    Yeah, I'll own that (even though I was specifically talking to Di )

    The reason I recommended searching Kandahar's posts in both of those threads was because the information and links just flow out of his posts. Me? I'd spend way too much time looking at way too many documents to do the same thing he's already done (and done well).

    I understand the angst some people are going through.....and thank for understanding my laziness.

    ...........and it is bed time for this girl.


    I would chat with her when I'm feeling particularly snarky, but I wouldn't ever call her on the phone.

  8. #98
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    If you'er a child, it's a right that your parents provide you with proper medical care.
    In adulthood, it's your responsibility to find a way to fund your own medical care.

    For the lesser among us (aka, disabled) it should be a privilege, provided at tax payer expense.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    It's a public health issue. It is something the community (as in all of us) can work together to problem solve, as we did in creating fire departments. It is good for all of us if basic public health is maintained.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #100
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    Re: Health Care; Privlege, Right or Responsibility?

    It is a good or service.

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