View Poll Results: Is property self justifying

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  • Yes, property is an innate right, your exclusive rights to your property is self justifying

    9 75.00%
  • No, if you want exlusive rights to something it must be justfiable.

    3 25.00%
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Thread: Is porperty Self justifying?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    I don't see anything "innate" about property rights. The idea of property is simply a social convention the purpose of which is to reduce constant conflicts by deciding who may use and control a particular resource, which right is referred to as "ownership". The owner of a piece of property is recognized as having the exclusive right to use and control his property.

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Things obviously do not need claimed, but most things are claimed including the trees and the sand.

    Many animals including man practice ownership. Show me how we all came up with the same tradition if you can.
    We peed on bushes?

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Your argument is now bordering on the desperate. Here I'll help you out:

    If a lion has "property" and a "right" to that property, why does it need to constantly defend it from other lions? After all, if it's PROPERTY and a RIGHT shouldn't the other lions know that they shouldn't be infringing on the rights of that lion? Obviously if an animal has the cognitive ability to define something like property (at least in a form similar to how we humans define it) - wouldn't the definition of said property be dependent on its understand of rights as innate?
    Your argument is dripping in a complete misunderstanding of rights to begin with. You're like most people that reject natural rights get caught up in the lack of protections due to your ignorance of the ideas laid out in front of you. Do you wish me to help you on that or not?

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    We peed on bushes?
    Well we might do it in different ways.

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    So might is right ....
    Nope, but might makes a claim mighty hard to dispute.



    There wasn't land ownership in the middle ages, it was stewardship and by no means was it absolute.

    Wrong. My original reference was to the very early Middle Ages, the period once referred to as 'the Dark Ages'. Land was controlled by those who lead a band of armed men and who had the capacity to control and defend a given territory against other leader-of-armed-men, and their rule over their territory was as absolute as the loyalty of their armed retainers.

    In the later Middle Ages a more formal system of Feudalism arose in which fiefs were granted by the Crown, and were not absolute... but that was later. Even so, yes there was private property... at a certain point (I forget the exact century, been a while since college) there were problems that arose when the village/manor system began to change and private farming lots were fenced off, instead of being farmed in radial strips and ... well it gets involved and too much for me to go into just now, but suffice it to say that you're wrong about private property being nonexistent in the Middle Ages.

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Your argument is dripping in a complete misunderstanding of rights to begin with. You're like most people that reject natural rights get caught up in the lack of protections due to your ignorance of the ideas laid out in front of you. Do you wish me to help you on that or not?
    Whether or not natural rights exist si totally seperate of the qeustion, even if they do, why should property be included in that, since by its very nature its exclusive and exclusionary.

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Your argument is dripping in a complete misunderstanding of rights to begin with. You're like most people that reject natural rights get caught up in the lack of protections due to your ignorance of the ideas laid out in front of you. Do you wish me to help you on that or not?
    Yawn - save me your weak interpretations of Locke and Ayn Rand rants. However it's good to see you ducked the example of the lions. We wouldn't want your "natural rights" argument to go out the window simply because you looked at another species.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 06-26-12 at 07:20 AM.
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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    In other words is property an innate right, or does it need to be justified?

    Here is my position:

    No, it just be justified either that it is needed by you exclusively and the sharing of it would be counter intuitive, or because you having exclusive rights to somethign would benefit soceity as a whole.

    Having exclusive rights to part of the earth is NOT self justifiying, because you found it or whatever, if you want exclusive rights, and thus the potential for authority, it needs to be justified somehow.
    Neither, its just how people are programmed to relate to the world and some feel the need to build a philosophy around it to feel justified.

  9. #39
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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Nope, but might makes a claim mighty hard to dispute.
    Well, you essencially gave no justification other than you have a gun, i.e. might is right.

    I get it you rightwingers constantly feel the need to re-assert your manhood by playing tough, but that doesn't address the issue at all.

    Wrong. My original reference was to the very early Middle Ages, the period once referred to as 'the Dark Ages'. Land was controlled by those who lead a band of armed men and who had the capacity to control and defend a given territory against other leader-of-armed-men, and their rule over their territory was as absolute as the loyalty of their armed retainers.
    Even that wasn't actual land ownership, those war lords didn't own the land, the offered protection to people, and they had possessions.

    It wasn't private property as such, a farmer could'nt just sell land or build whatever he wanted.

    In the later Middle Ages a more formal system of Feudalism arose in which fiefs were granted by the Crown, and were not absolute... but that was later. Even so, yes there was private property... at a certain point (I forget the exact century, been a while since college) there were problems that arose when the village/manor system began to change and private farming lots were fenced off, instead of being farmed in radial strips and ... well it gets involved and too much for me to go into just now, but suffice it to say that you're wrong about private property being nonexistent in the Middle Ages.
    Even the Crown didn't actually own the land, the conept was divine stewardship.

    The private farming lots got fenced off after the black plague, but even that wasn't actual private property until nation states came along and distributed land grants.

    Property may have existed, but it was very limited and very contingent.

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Well, you essencially gave no justification other than you have a gun, i.e. might is right.
    Well, that's essentially all he needs in order to be justified in having a right to that land. Not so much a gun, but the ability to use force if his regency over it is threatened. If he is beaten, neither he nor his children can lay claim to the land anymore. So either it's a "natural right" or it's not. If it's "natural" - it's inalienable. We know that's not true because if I have bigger guns, I could simply take the property from him. That leaves us with a single option: that a right to land is based on a) the ability to defend it and b) the legal framework which is added in for rhetorical and societal purposes.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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