View Poll Results: Is property self justifying

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  • Yes, property is an innate right, your exclusive rights to your property is self justifying

    9 75.00%
  • No, if you want exlusive rights to something it must be justfiable.

    3 25.00%
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Thread: Is porperty Self justifying?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    1. If you take the land by force it clearly is not a right to do as it's a violation of the rights of the owner of the land.
    2. You don't need someone to tell you that you own something.
    3. The entire concept has nothing at all to do with society. It is greatly assisted by society without a doubt but property itself exists in and outside of society.
    Utter nonsense. The entire concept of the state is based around the securing territory through the use of force. To claim that you violate the former regent's rights by deposing him and creating a new regime is based on the notion that under a new regent, the old framework concerning ownership still applies. It does not. As such, the ONLY logical conclusion is that your right to a particular piece of land is a fictional concept dependent on the very real idea of social contracts allowing legal guardianship eg. if government X were to be replaced by government Y tomorrow, your "ownership" of that land would be contingent on the changes of the legal framework of government Y.

    Don't think so? Tell me what happened in the land formerly owned by Palestinians in Israel? New government, new ownership laws - old laws became obsolete and irrelevant. What happened in the US? Creation of US government, Indians got their ass kicked - new definition of land ownership - the Indians no longer owned their land.

    Western Philosophy 101.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 06-26-12 at 06:36 AM.
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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Property is 100% dependant on society, its inherently social, its exclusionary, i.e. only I have exclusive rights to this property and the rest of society must respect that.
    Ownership as I have said to you before is about control over something that allows you the say on what to do with it always by making a claim to said property and taking an effort to protect such claim. As I have said before this is found in and outside of society.

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Utter nonsense. The entire concept of the state is based around the securing territory through the use of force.
    I'm talking about property as a idea, not states. Try to keep up.

    To claim that you violate the former regent's rights by deposing him and creating a new regime is based on the notion that under a new regent, the old framework concerning ownership still applies. It does not. As such, the ONLY logical conclusion is that your right to a particular piece of land is a fictional concept based on the very real idea of social contracts allowing legal guardianship.
    States =/= the idea of property.

  4. #14
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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Ownership as I have said to you before is about control over something that allows you the say on what to do with it always by making a claim to said property and taking an effort to protect such claim. As I have said before this is found in and outside of society.
    I'm talking about private property, i.e. exlcusive rights over something.

    If you live on an island alone and have control over stuff, that not property, you don't need the idea of property, its a pointless concept.

    States =/= the idea of property.
    Actually historiaclly its true, the idea of private property came from nation states.

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm talking about property as a idea, not states. Try to keep up.
    Yes and as an idea - it's invented. Something which isn't real and dependent on your ability to defend it physically or otherwise.

    States =/= the idea of property.
    Your inability to extrapolate is amazing.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    In other words is property an innate right, or does it need to be justified?

    Here is my position:

    No, it just be justified either that it is needed by you exclusively and the sharing of it would be counter intuitive, or because you having exclusive rights to somethign would benefit soceity as a whole.

    Having exclusive rights to part of the earth is NOT self justifiying, because you found it or whatever, if you want exclusive rights, and thus the potential for authority, it needs to be justified somehow.
    "Every Person has the right to own such private property as meets the essential needs of decent living and helps to maintain the dignity of the individual and of the home."

    American Declaration of the Rights and Duties of Man

    However, ultimately everything belongs to God. We just manage it for Him for a while. I read the above to mean a right to manage at least that minimum level of property.
    Last edited by Jerry; 06-26-12 at 06:48 AM.

  7. #17
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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Here's my definition of property:


    If you try to take my property, me and my rifle are going to have to dispute your theft.


    That's the fundamental basis of it, really... you truly own what you're willing and able to defend. Now in modern times we've ceded a measure of our individual sovereignty to the government, so the government backs my title to my land with government force.... specifically cops, courts and prison.

    But if the government isn't "immediately on hand" there's still me and my rifle, and I have no problem with shooting thieves, and neither does my state government.

    There's also, of course, the theory of mixing your labor with the land makes it yours... but ultimately it is only going to STAY yours if you or someone else is willing to defend your claim.

    As I told someone else, "go try to squat on my back woodlot and see what happens".

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
    "Every Person has the right to own such private property as meets the essential needs of decent living and helps to maintain the dignity of the individual and of the home."
    A: The American declaratino of rights is not the end of and be all for all things ethical, its just an appeal to an arbitrary authority.
    B: Even there its justified in the end "as meets the essencial needs of decent living and helps maintain the dignity of the individual and of home," which is extremely modest and by no means justifying capitalist private property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    Here's my definition of property:


    If you try to take my property, me and my rifle are going to have to dispute your theft.


    That's the fundamental basis of it, really... you truly own what you're willing and able to defend. Now in modern times we've ceded a measure of our individual sovereignty to the government, so the government backs my title to my land with government force.... specifically cops, courts and prison.

    But if the government isn't "immediately on hand" there's still me and my rifle, and I have no problem with shooting thieves, and neither does my state government.

    There's also, of course, the theory of mixing your labor with the land makes it yours... but ultimately it is only going to STAY yours if you or someone else is willing to defend your claim.

    As I told someone else, "go try to squat on my back woodlot and see what happens".
    Your not justifying anything, your just talking about enforcement of what you allready assume to be an innate right.

    Also what If I claim that what you claim is your property actually isn't ... then its just whoever shoots each other first ... thats not a justification thats just saying "I got a gun," your not addressing the question.
    Last edited by RGacky3; 06-26-12 at 06:50 AM.

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Yes and as an idea - it's invented. Something which isn't real and dependent on your ability to defend it physically or otherwise.
    Its hardly invented. People have made claims and controlled property for as long as people existed. Things have to be owned by someone in nature and society so its either owned by you and me or owned by our leaders. You decide.

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    Re: Is porperty Self justifying?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    I'm talking about private property, i.e. exlcusive rights over something.
    I am too.

    If you live on an island alone and have control over stuff, that not property, you don't need the idea of property, its a pointless concept.
    You do have control over everything there and if someone comes to the island you will protect it.

    Actually historiaclly its true, the idea of private property came from nation states.
    Actually its not. The idea of private property came from people that was picked up on by nation states.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-26-12 at 06:53 AM.

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