View Poll Results: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

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Thread: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

  1. #211
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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    Don't listen to this scarecrow, he hasn't seen the wizard yet.

    Who is a slave owner and a libertarian anyway? I've yet to meet one.
    Some of the Founding Fathers owned slaves, and Ron Paul is dumb enough to try to peg the FF as "libertarians" so it raises the question.

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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    No way lol... Jefferson owned slaves, he had libertarian philosophies but, you also have to look at the morality of the time. Even the beloved Abraham Lincoln said this:

    "There is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

    Did everyone like Lincoln's support of the exportation of slaves back to Africa?

    Lysander Spooner is more of a libertarian than Jefferson. Ron Paul is more paleoconservative than libertarian in my eyes.

    Edit:

    I only read a little of the first page and had to post I'll start reading the rest since its not to long of a thread.
    Libertarianism is a recent invention. Up until the early 70's, "libertarianism" was classical liberalism.

    Classical liberalism is a political ideology that advocates limited government, constitutionalism, rule of law, due process, individual liberties including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.
    Last edited by RadicalModerate; 06-29-12 at 08:08 PM.

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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    "Non-intervention was American policy until the 20th C"

    I do not think you have read your history.

    Texas and New Mexico - the Mexican American War (1846-1848), California (1846), Hawaii (1893) Cuba (1898) - nope, no intervention there by Americans.
    War of 1812 as well, Somoa, attrocities against the indians, the start of US-Philippino war, and you could call the Civil War one as well.

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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    Libertarianism is a recent invention. Up until the early 70's, "libertarianism" was classical liberalism.
    Yep, never said otherwise . Just stating that Lysander Spooner is closer to a libertarian than Thomas Jefferson, as well as Frederic Bastiat and Albert Jay Nock.

    Edit: I was reading Ralph Raico's book on classical liberal thought got side tracked though

    You can thank John Stuart Mill for the branch toward neo liberals, he was a Left Leaning Libertarian by todays standards
    Last edited by LibertyBurns; 06-29-12 at 08:28 PM.

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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post

    Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?[/SIZE][/FONT]


    Today? Of course not.

    230 years ago? Well.... that's a little different. Actually it is a lot different. Judging historical figures by modern standards is a common fallacy.

    The time they lived in was very different... so different it is hard for modern persons to really imagine what it was like, no matter how many times you've seen The Patriot or Last of the Mohicans. The very notion that a nation could be governed by its common citizenry was still very radical... even if citizen only meant free white males. The vast majority of people at that time did not believe that women or blacks were generally capable of managing their own affairs, let alone participating in running the State.

    Yeah, they were wrong... but that was what almost everyone thought at the time. There were many people who barely considered black Africans to be human, let alone intelligent, let alone equal to the free white male. To the modern ear that sentence sound absolutely horrible, racism of the worst possible sort.... but to so many people in that era it was "the common wisdom", what "everyone knew".

    There were some slave owners, IIRC Washington and Jefferson were among them, who publically deplored the institution but went on keeping slaves. Why? Well, that's probably complicated... one thing being economics, another being the reaction of their social peers if they'd up and freed their slaves... and another being whether those slaves could actually manage on their own after a lifetime of being told when to get up, when to sleep and eat, what to do and how to do it... they may well have felt dubious about whether the action would actually be benevolent or disasterous.

    Do you, Gentle Reader, have any moral principles or values you hold about right and wrong? I imagine you do... but if I asked you "do you ALWAYS do EXACTLY as your principles dictate in every situation, every time?" I'm pretty sure any honest person would answer "Well... no, not ALL the time." Hm. Does that make you a hypocrite? Or does it just make you human that you are not perfect in all ways? I'd say the latter.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm against slavery and consider it a great evil, and I'm glad it was done away with and wish we had NEVER allowed it in the USA at ALL. All I'm saying is we need to understand the times to understand the man, and ought to be cautious about judging figures from 230+ years ago by modern standards. It was a very different world.

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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Today? Of course not.

    230 years ago? Well.... that's a little different. Actually it is a lot different. Judging historical figures by modern standards is a common fallacy.

    The time they lived in was very different... so different it is hard for modern persons to really imagine what it was like, no matter how many times you've seen The Patriot or Last of the Mohicans. The very notion that a nation could be governed by its common citizenry was still very radical... even if citizen only meant free white males. The vast majority of people at that time did not believe that women or blacks were generally capable of managing their own affairs, let alone participating in running the State.

    Yeah, they were wrong... but that was what almost everyone thought at the time. There were many people who barely considered black Africans to be human, let alone intelligent, let alone equal to the free white male. To the modern ear that sentence sound absolutely horrible, racism of the worst possible sort.... but to so many people in that era it was "the common wisdom", what "everyone knew".

    There were some slave owners, IIRC Washington and Jefferson were among them, who publically deplored the institution but went on keeping slaves. Why? Well, that's probably complicated... one thing being economics, another being the reaction of their social peers if they'd up and freed their slaves... and another being whether those slaves could actually manage on their own after a lifetime of being told when to get up, when to sleep and eat, what to do and how to do it... they may well have felt dubious about whether the action would actually be benevolent or disasterous.

    Do you, Gentle Reader, have any moral principles or values you hold about right and wrong? I imagine you do... but if I asked you "do you ALWAYS do EXACTLY as your principles dictate in every situation, every time?" I'm pretty sure any honest person would answer "Well... no, not ALL the time." Hm. Does that make you a hypocrite? Or does it just make you human that you are not perfect in all ways? I'd say the latter.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm against slavery and consider it a great evil, and I'm glad it was done away with and wish we had NEVER allowed it in the USA at ALL. All I'm saying is we need to understand the times to understand the man, and ought to be cautious about judging figures from 230+ years ago by modern standards. It was a very different world.
    Bravo Bravo, a voice of reason! People still have a misconception of Jefferson being libertarian, probably because of radical Paul supporters.

    Edit: People back then believed that blacks were inferior and couldnt take care of themselves.

    "There is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.".

    Abraham Lincoln

    Even this guy here didn't think to highly of them
    Last edited by LibertyBurns; 06-29-12 at 08:41 PM.

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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    Bravo Bravo, a voice of reason! People still have a misconception of Jefferson being libertarian, probably because of radical Paul supporters.
    Agreed. The Founders were a varied lot actually, but for the most part they were what we refer to as "classical liberals." Classical liberal, in that day and age, typically referred to someone well-educated in "the classics" (something almost extinct in the modern era... meaning they were well-read and well-versed in things like Plato, Aristotle and Socrates, as well as more contemporary thinkers like Locke) who tended to embrace free-market economics (rather than the "manor system" or mercantilism or guild-dominated economy /etc) and political freedom over monarchy and aristocracy.

    Classical Liberal was somewhat like modern Right-Libertarianism, and somewhat like modern Conservativism, but somewhat different from either. It is a field of study unto itself.

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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Agreed. The Founders were a varied lot actually, but for the most part they were what we refer to as "classical liberals." Classical liberal, in that day and age, typically referred to someone well-educated in "the classics" (something almost extinct in the modern era... meaning they were well-read and well-versed in things like Plato, Aristotle and Socrates, as well as more contemporary thinkers like Locke) who tended to embrace free-market economics (rather than the "manor system" or mercantilism or guild-dominated economy /etc) and political freedom over monarchy and aristocracy.

    Classical Liberal was somewhat like modern Right-Libertarianism, and somewhat like modern Conservativism, but somewhat different from either. It is a field of study unto itself.
    I completely agree but, I'll add John Stuart Mill definitely leaned left.

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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Agreed. The Founders were a varied lot actually, but for the most part they were what we refer to as "classical liberals." Classical liberal, in that day and age, typically referred to someone well-educated in "the classics" (something almost extinct in the modern era... meaning they were well-read and well-versed in things like Plato, Aristotle and Socrates, as well as more contemporary thinkers like Locke) who tended to embrace free-market economics (rather than the "manor system" or mercantilism or guild-dominated economy /etc) and political freedom over monarchy and aristocracy.

    Classical Liberal was somewhat like modern Right-Libertarianism, and somewhat like modern Conservativism, but somewhat different from either. It is a field of study unto itself.
    What's that word to describe a false past tense word?
    Globalist = Free Trade, Open Borders, Multiculturalist, Anti-White Racist, Hypocrite, Sophist, Deceiver, Manipulator, Warmonger, Vulgar Culture, Morally Depraved......Enemy

    Death to Globalists

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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    Bravo Bravo, a voice of reason! People still have a misconception of Jefferson being libertarian, probably because of radical Paul supporters.

    Edit: People back then believed that blacks were inferior and couldnt take care of themselves.

    "There is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.".

    Abraham Lincoln

    Even this guy here didn't think to highly of them
    And then the globalist dixiecrats (Libertarians) try to maneuver the South into being black baby huggers who just had employment opportunities for blacks.
    Globalist = Free Trade, Open Borders, Multiculturalist, Anti-White Racist, Hypocrite, Sophist, Deceiver, Manipulator, Warmonger, Vulgar Culture, Morally Depraved......Enemy

    Death to Globalists

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