View Poll Results: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

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Thread: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

  1. #191
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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    you just expressed great pain that you had to agree with me. It shows that you keep a close eye on the people, and not the views, when you are actively debating. I find this sad. You clearly disagree.
    You seem to think the individual and his views are separate. This isn't the case. There are people I constantly disagree with on this forum because their views are usually bull****.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #192
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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    You seem to think the individual and his views are separate. This isn't the case. There are people I constantly disagree with on this forum because their views are usually bull****.
    A non hack would simply disagree and explain why

    But hey, thanks for the pathetic way you went about agreeing with me. It was really swell of you and all.

  3. #193
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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    "From the halls of Montezuma...to the shores of Tripoli.."

    non-interventionalist...my butt.
    It wasn't the founders who started that crap, as the founders were typically classical liberals, and classical liberalism advocates non-interventionism. It happened when real liberalism fell out of favor in the early 1900's.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  4. #194
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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    I say it's completely possible. If most Libertarians I've spoken to or read on this board are any indication...all it takes to be a libertarian is to talk about freedom and liberty in some abstract way while knowingly supporting contrary policies.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  5. #195
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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It wasn't the founders who started that crap, as the founders were typically classical liberals, and classical liberalism advocates non-interventionism. It happened when real liberalism fell out of favor in the early 1900's.
    we invaded Tripoli in the 18th century.

  6. #196
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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    Irrelevant. We never came close to intervening in the affairs of sovereign nations on this issue. so what you wrote was patently ignorant. We were attacked, and they declared war on us. That you use this as an example of non-intervention is comical, and that is even ignoring the part about how Ron Paul needs to read more history books.

    You need to read a hell of a lot more of just about everything if you want to debate someone on this subject.
    Bull****. Read into the actual history of at least the first Barbary War.

    First of all, at the time the war began, and Jefferson initiated the naval blockade of Tripoli, there weren't any acts of aggression against American shipping. It's true that we had signed a treaty at the time that pretty much forced us to pay extortionary amounts of tribute in order to ensure safe passage of American merchant shipping because we didn't have a strong enough Navy at the time, but there weren't any actual acts of aggression being committed against us, or our shipping. At the time, American merchant shipping had been enjoying safe passage through the Mediterranean for about 15 years because we were paying about $1 million in tribute to the Barbary states per year.

    Moreover, "never came close to intervening in the affairs of sovereign nations?" Seriously? We CAPTURED the Tripolitan city of Derna with 8 US Marines and a few hundred Arab and Greek mercenaries, an act which purely went beyond direct self-defense. "Never came close to intervening" my ass.

    From wikipedia:

    Nonintervention or non-interventionism is a foreign policy which holds that political rulers should avoid alliances with other nations, but still retain diplomacy, and avoid all wars not related to direct self-defense.
    That's clearly not what happened here. While the Barbary states were pissing us off, the First Barbary war was an act of aggression and was instigated on OUR part, in that we made the first move. If you disagree with my account of the war then by all means point out where I'm wrong. Even if I were to grant you that the Barbary wars were in RESPONSE to an act of aggression, I'd still maintain that marching on, and capturing a city in enemy territory goes far beyond simple "direct self-defense." It would be as if Iran detained, tortured, and killed an American citizen in their custody, and our response would be to invade Iran capture and occupy the city of Tehran. That sure as hell isn't self-defense.

    And even if you dismissed the Barbary Wars as an instance of interventionism and I were to agree with you, I could point to other examples. There sure as hell isn't anything "non-interventionist" about westward expansion and conflicts with native tribes, all policies promoted by our "non-interventionist" founding Fathers.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 06-26-12 at 04:17 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  7. #197
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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    we invaded Tripoli in the 18th century.
    I was referring to the non-interventionism. Protecting US merchant ships is a different matter altogether.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  8. #198
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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I was referring to the non-interventionism. Protecting US merchant ships is a different matter altogether.
    protecting them....from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    ...First of all, at the time the war began, and Jefferson initiated the naval blockade of Tripoli, there weren't any acts of aggression against American shipping...

  9. #199
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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Bull****. Read into the actual history of at least the first Barbary War.
    I am very familiar with the history. At no time did we intervene into the sovereign affair of foreign nations in regards to this issue.

    And even if you dismissed the Barbary Wars as an instance of interventionism and I were to agree with you, I could point to other examples. There sure as hell isn't anything "non-interventionist" about westward expansion and conflicts with native tribes, all policies promoted by our "non-interventionist" founding Fathers.
    Your example of native tribes is a better example in that we could be considered the aggressor, but many will argue it was somewhat a policy of self preservation (albeit a weak one)

    Ron Paul is correct, and nobody of any significance really argues it. Nonintervention was absolutely the overriding philosophy in our early years, we simply didn’t view Indian tribes as states holding any form of sovereignty.

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    Re: Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    ...Nonintervention was absolutely the overriding philosophy in our early years, we simply didn’t view Indian tribes as states holding any form of sovereignty.
    did we not sign territorial treaties with the Native Americans, and violate such treaties time and time again?

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