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Should students be suspended or expelled for truancy/tardiness?

should students be suspended or expelled for truancy/tardiness?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 21.2%

  • No

    Votes: 26 78.8%
  • Total voters
    33
marcus903 said:
Do you think students should be penalized for truancy/tardiness?

Here's what I think?

In my opinion, students should not be penalized for truancy/tardiness. Why? Here's my below explanation:
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Yes, they should be expelled or otherwise penalized, as truancy and tardiness is disruptive to the other students, who are there to learn and graduate from school.

If a kid absolutely doesn't want to be there, and his parents can't handle him/her enough to ensure that he is not a disruption to the school environment, then take him out of school.
 
This is a good one, and one of far reaching consquences..
The idea or purpose is to stop/prevent criminal behavour..and this MUST be done at a very young age..
Emotionally, I'd say that those who insist (with their "parents" aid and support) in being truant should be thrown in prison....then forced to attend school....I doubt if this would work....
But simply expelling the rebel does NOT work and only shifts the costs from the school to the state..
But, then, I favor that local control of schools is not good.
It should be state control, with local input, of course.
 
haymarket said:
When I was the union building rep at my high school for over twenty years, the Union Committee and I undertook what became a crusade. We discovered that the average student in our high school was absent some 32 times a semester. That is not a school year but rather just half of it. That is because the school district had no attendance policy.

So we lobbied and fought and pushed and shoved and finally after a long period of this, the principal relented and agreed to a firm attendance policy in which any student absent more than 15 times would be given a failing grade in the class. Again, that is not 15 times in an academic year but 15 times in one semester normally constituting between 90 and 95 days.

So we publicized this to the high heavens in the fall semester and everybody abided by it. And miracle of miracles, attendance improved across the board. But we still had a good one-quarter of the school who exceeded the number and they were given the automatic failing grade. And within days, the principal revoked the principal by administrative fiat and ordered the staff to recalculate the grades as if no policy had been in effect.
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So, there are two sides to this argument....like most all arguments....two or MORE sides...
The thing to do, IMO, is rebel...The teachers should have (united) refused to do this...
And the reasons that the "repealing principals" have should be known and published....they may have good reasons.....
 
earthworm said:
So, there are two sides to this argument....like most all arguments....two or MORE sides...
The thing to do, IMO, is rebel...The teachers should have (united) refused to do this...
And the reasons that the "repealing principals" have should be known and published....they may have good reasons.....
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The principal repealed the policy for one reason and one reason only: it raised the level of failures and brought her under the attention of her superiors in administration.

If the teachers had refused to go along with this, we would have been in violation of our contract and could be sanctioned for it.

Some people carp that teacher unions only care about money in teachers pockets. This is a clear example where we were trying to get policy changes for the good of students and their education but were stopped by administration.
 
Viktyr Korimir said:
The purpose of truancy laws is to force students to stay in school.

The punishment for violating truancy laws is to force students to stay away from the school.

The fact that this particular form of pig****ing stupidity is common in the public school system is one more reason my children will never see the inside of one unless I'm threatening them with what will happen if they neglect their studies.
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Then it is obvious that the truancy laws MUST be rewritten... I committed "truancy" once, as I remember...walking across a field on a beautiful day...nature was more interesting and I was so young....
We are working with young humans here...IMO, those who wrote the laws did not know this at the time...
And, keeping ones children our of public schools (home schooling) is NOT the answer.
In other words, the schools must be made to be more interesting to the pupils.
 
earthworm said:
Then it is obvious that the truancy laws MUST be rewritten... I committed "truancy" once, as I remember...walking across a field on a beautiful day...nature was more interesting and I was so young....
We are working with young humans here...IMO, those who wrote the laws did not know this at the time...
And, keeping ones children our of public schools (home schooling) is NOT the answer.
In other words, the schools must be made to be more interesting to the pupils.
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The situation you describe is much different from chronic truants in the public schools. Every now and then, a student deciding to skip a day at school is no issue. It's the ones who refuse to go, disrupt the class frequently, and want special treatment, who are the problems which need to be dealt with. School is a drag for a lot of kids, and I was no exception to that rule, but school is for learning, and for teaching children how to think critically, and move on in life, and not necessarily for their personal enjoyment. As sad as it is, school won't and can't be interesting for every child. Education is a disclipine, and is meant to help you learn to achieve goals and assist you in getting along in the world as it is.
 
jamesrage said:
That sounds all good but wouldn't someone who skips school just skip those days too? I think jail would be a better solution.Jail or juvenile hall would be a better solution since in that situation they would have no choice.
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If they skip the days then juvenile hall would definitely be put into the mix. ;)
 
molten_dragon said:
No, it's absolutely ridiculous. You punish kids who don't come to school by not letting them come to school? What kind of retarded **** is that? Just fail them if they miss a certain number of days.
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This is why we need better law-makers..those who are willing to think/reason in the 21st century, NOT the 16th century.
The children (and parents) are failing themselves....is this what they want ???
 
earthworm said:
This is why we need better law-makers..those who are willing to think/reason in the 21st century, NOT the 16th century.
The children (and parents) are failing themselves....is this what they want ???
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If they fail themselves then that is their problem. Besides, repeating a grade because they missed too many days of school might teach them something about responsibility.
 
Kal'Stang said:
If they fail themselves then that is their problem. Besides, repeating a grade because they missed too many days of school might teach them something about responsibility.
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In some ways it's everyone's problem.
 
I'm not a fan of failing students who miss too many days either. Why should students have to be in school if they can pass into the next grade / pass their classes without being there? That says a lot about the quality of the teachers/class time and the quality of the standards for success in schools. Arbitrarily failing students for poor attendance is not the way to go. A much better system would be one where students fail due to low attendance because they missed assignments or lectures and thus failed or missed their tests. Then it's not arbitrary to fail them, it's completely justified, and it's how schools should work regardless of attendance policy. If a student can miss a third of a semester's school days and still pass, there's something terribly wrong with the school, not the student.
 
Kal'Stang said:
If they fail themselves then that is their problem. Besides, repeating a grade because they missed too many days of school might teach them something about responsibility.
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Its also our problem
higher taxes
less security
higher insurance costs
lower national standing
Can responsibility be taught ?....by those other than the parents ?
 
Students should be penalized for truancy and tardiness. In the real world you can and will be fired for excessive absences and tardiness because it negatively affects the business for which you work. There is no point in coddling students. Unfortunately, there are few options available to educators and administrators that would not simultaneously penalize educators and administrators. Even expulsion and detention will reflect negatively upon the school in terms of statistics.

Ultimately, a student, particularly a high school student, is capable of arriving to class on time on all required days. If they fail to meet that expectation there is absolutely no justification for not holding them accountable.
 
So, you don't want to come to school, huh! Well, I'll show you. I'll suspend you so you can't come to school.

Nope. Makes no sense at all, does it?

I wonder how many of those truant kids' parents are on welfare? perhaps if their welfare payments were jeopardized, they'd see to it that their kids came to school.

Face it: There is no way you can force anyone to get an education. The best you can do is make it uncomfortable to parents who won't see to it that their kids come to school. Once they're in school, the teachers are liable to wish that they weren't.
 
marcus903 said:
Do you think students should be penalized for truancy/tardiness?

Here's what I think?

In my opinion, students should not be penalized for truancy/tardiness. Why? Here's my below explanation:

By expelling students for truancy, you are giving them permission for missing school. In my district, schools are NOT allowed to suspend/expel a student for being truant or tardy. They have a legitimate reason not to do this:

Expulsions because of truancy does NOT fix the issue and should not be used because it actually encourages students to miss school. Basically, you're telling students that if you want to be exempted from having to go to school for at least two semesters, you must NOT go to school. This type of expulsions also warrants attendance issues because of the results of the expulsion.

In Milwaukee, if a child is found on the streets, they are not arrested nor face criminal charges. Instead, they are taken to a truancy center found in a Boys & Girls Club and probably counseled on the importance of staying in school. Parents are not sent directly to jail for their child missing school, but is instead fined for not correcting the truancy problem.

Milwaukee Public Schools understands the results of having expulsions because of truancy and does not allow students to be expelled for habitual truancy, doesn't matter how serious it is. In your opinion, should students be penalized (through the use of expulsions/suspensions) for truancy
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If the child is under 16: The custodial parent should be punished with fines and/or community service.

If the child is over 16: The custodial parent and child together should be punished with fines and community service.

If the child has been reported as a runaway: The child alone should be punished with a sentence to juvenile hall followed by a half-way house if they don't return home.

Adults should have to show proof of HS diploma or GED in order to receive any form of public assistance. Special considerations are acceptable for adults who can prove they are attending a GED program.
 
Jerry said:
If the child is under 16: The custodial parent should be punished with fines and/or community service.

If the child is over 16: The custodial parent and child together should be punished with fines and community service.

If the child has been reported as a runaway: The child alone should be punished with a sentence to juvenile hall followed by a half-way house if they don't return home.

Adults should have to show proof of HS diploma or GED in order to receive any form of public assistance. Special considerations are acceptable for adults who can prove they are attending a GED program.
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Side note: I actually kind of find it funny how so many people claim that you shouldn't punish the child for the wrongs of the parent and yet if the child does wrong and knows they did wrong it is perfectly acceptable to just punish the parent.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Side note: I actually kind of find it funny how so many people claim that you shouldn't punish the child for the wrongs of the parent and yet if the child does wrong and knows they did wrong it is perfectly acceptable to just punish the parent.
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That's probably because, right or wrong, it's part of our culture to consider parents/guardians as responsible for their children/wards actions...


In a way that makes sense - if it's uncomfortable to raise your child badly, because you'll be punished (more or less) for what they do wrong until they hit 18, you just might do a better than nothing at all job at it...


Nah.
 
The Mark said:
That's probably because, right or wrong, it's part of our culture to consider parents/guardians as responsible for their children/wards actions...


In a way that makes sense - if it's uncomfortable to raise your child badly, because you'll be punished (more or less) for what they do wrong until they hit 18, you just might do a better than nothing at all job at it...


Nah.
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That didn't use to be our culture at least until all the Dr. Phil types came out. Use to be that if a child did wrong and knew they did wrong then they would be held responsible and they knew it. Which helped them make the right choices more often than not.

Now its "the child can do no wrong! It's all the parents fault!" and "everyone is special and no one can lose!". Personally I find much of it dispicable.
 
Kal'Stang said:
That didn't use to be our culture at least until all the Dr. Phil types came out. Use to be that if a child did wrong and knew they did wrong then they would be held responsible and they knew it. Which helped them make the right choices more often than not.

Now its "the child can do no wrong! It's all the parents fault!" and "everyone is special and no one can lose!". Personally I find much of it dispicable.
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Actually, what I see is that the parents and the children both deny any problem on their own parts, and the teachers/ school admin are blamed. It's really quite a joke, as the teachers have no power to make the kids behave, and the only people who do have legal authority are abdicating their responsibility.
 
Expelling students for absenteeism can be likened to the legalization of capital punishment.

Student don't do what they should, i.e., attend class, so the authorities' punishment is identical to the crime. a student skips too much, we permanent skip them by expelling them.

Societal law states that murder is wrong and that it should not be done, but murderers do what they shouldn't do, i.e., kill, so the authorities then decide to kill them. They may base this decision on if the murder reach a certain level of heinousness or if it was a serial offense and there were numerous victims, but it contradicts the teachings they are trying to uphold.

Absenteeism: You want me to go to school, and when I don't do what you want, you don't allow me to do what I should do.

Murder: You don't want me to kill, and when I don't do what you want, you do to me what shouldn't be done.

All hypocritical policies are poor policies. Clearly, removing the option of school for those who abandon it robs them of the personal and societal benefit to attend when they decide it is a smart choice.

It is obvious, expelling on absenteeism alone is a very poor policy.
 
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Kal'Stang said:
That didn't use to be our culture at least until all the Dr. Phil types came out. Use to be that if a child did wrong and knew they did wrong then they would be held responsible and they knew it. Which helped them make the right choices more often than not.

Now its "the child can do no wrong! It's all the parents fault!" and "everyone is special and no one can lose!". Personally I find much of it dispicable.
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When the child does wrong, and the parent does nothing, that's when the parents are at fault. It's up to the parents to see to it that the child goes to school and that he does what he needs to to get an education. If the parents abrogate their responsibility, they yes, absolutely, they should be held accountable.
 
I vote no. The problem with education isn't attendance, it's that public schools are ****ing terrible. If they want kids to stay, the system is going to have to start making schools more like a place of learning, and a lot less like minimum security prisons for tiny people.
 
Lokiate said:
I vote no. The problem with education isn't attendance, it's that public schools are ****ing terrible. If they want kids to stay, the system is going to have to start making schools more like a place of learning, and a lot less like minimum security prisons for tiny people.
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Then perhaps the kids should act like they are there for learning, rather than quasi-criminals and delinquents.
 
I think it shoudl depend on the situation -which requires a bit of a case against the student and/or parent.

Are they gone b/c they skipped - on their own?
Or are they reliant on Granny or Mom to drive them - and that doesn't happen as often as it should?
Do they have a job and a complicated life outside of school causing issues?

Anything that's a blanket will just get a decent kid in a lot of troble - which will affect them for the rest of their life - possibly - when it might not be their cause at all.
 
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