View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #561
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Property rights long included water rights. Still do, afaik.

    Would you deny the owner of the property the right to say build a giant lake with the water running through his property?. The farmers use some of that water for their farms, leaving leas for those downstream.

    At what point is it "too much"?

    Who decides and who enforces?

    Who has the right to tell the owner he can't divert the water down another valley where he owns farmalnd?

    The only answer is government telling him he can't do so.

    Or war of some kind.
    If the parties belong to the same organization, then they would turn to that organization to decide and enforce its decision. If the parties belonged to two different organizations, then the decision would be based upon agreements made by the two organizations.

  2. #562
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    But without a means of enforcement that's exactly what you get.
    I am not suggesting forgoing any means to protect property rights. Organizations whose purpose is to protect the person and property of their members would certainly exist.

  3. #563
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    And the point of individual ownership is to prevent the government from becoming the 'bad guys.' The idea that the product of your mind and body belongs to you presupposes that you first have rightful possession of your mind and your body. If you do not, there is no rational basis to lay any legitimate claim to anything you produce.
    That's the thing I never get. Libertarians treat the government as if it's some alien entity, imposed on the people. The government *IS* the people! The people set up the government, the people give the government power, without the people, the government would not exist. If the government does things that you don't like, don't blame the government, blame the people!
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #564
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's the thing I never get. Libertarians treat the government as if it's some alien entity, imposed on the people. The government *IS* the people! The people set up the government, the people give the government power, without the people, the government would not exist. If the government does things that you don't like, don't blame the government, blame the people!
    Oh, I do.

  5. #565
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I don't see the direct correlation there.
    Self government. Our government exists only by the consent of the self owners who freely give up "certain" rights to government in exchange for the security and protection of the all their other rights.

    Society as a whole decides what is legitimate or not. Rationality is one method some people use to convince others that something is legitimate. Other people use loyalty, compassion, or some other consideration - you know, things that don't appear on business ledgers.
    Self ownership/ self government/ self control is a bundle of rights. Within that bundle of rights are the right of use, right of transfer, right to privacy, right to speak, right to exclude, etc, etc, etc, and right to exercise all his/her rights or none at all. A person may consent to give up one or even a few of his self rights in exchange for something else of value, such as a limited government, or becoming a member of a society/ group/collective, or working for someone else in exchange for money.


    Where I differ with Libertarians is the right to labor. Libertarians think that everything they earn is rightfully theirs and that taxation is forced labor. I disagree because Libertarians consented to have a government and gave up certain self rights in exchange for governments protection of their other rights. One of the "certain" rights they gave up is immunity from taxation of their labor. A Liberatarian depends on government to protect his right to get paid for his/her labor. But no one is forcing the Libertarian to work and if he doesn't work, he doesn't have to pay taxes. Ergo, no forced taxation or labor.

  6. #566
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot;1060621776Libertarians think that everything they earn is rightfully theirs and that taxation is forced labor. [B
    I disagree because Libertarians consented to have a government and gave up certain self rights in exchange for governments protection of their other rights.[/B]
    We did this when?
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  7. #567
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    We did this when?
    If I had a nickel for everytime I heard a right leaning Libertarian say 'forced taxation' or "redistrubtion of wealth" I'd be a rich woman.

  8. #568
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    If I had a nickel for everytime I heard a right leaning Libertarian say 'forced taxation' or "redistrubtion of wealth" I'd be a rich woman.
    It all would have been taxed away

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Oh, I do.
    And that's fine. However, that's not how most Libertarians I see do it. The problem from any particular political view is that you can't get the people to agree on any particular position. The ones that are most in power at the time make the rules. Complaining about the government without complaining about the people who put the politicians in power is pointless and ousting the politicians who you don't like doesn't matter because the idiots in the public will just vote them back in.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    If we didn't own our own bodies than killing us wouldn't be a problem.
    Killing people is a problem because it doesn't benefit the society in any way. Actually, the whole premise of a society is pretty much based around the pretty solid idea that killing members of our species in a world made increasingly smaller by our prolific ability to procreate is inherently bad.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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