View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #551
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    And if neither A nor C CAN stop B...?
    That would be unfortunate. Hopefully there is a D, E, F, G, etc. who would also attempt to stop B from interfering with A's choice to live. Hopefully the good guys outnumber the bad guys.

  2. #552
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    That would be unfortunate. Hopefully there is a D, E, F, G, etc. who would also attempt to stop B from interfering with A's choice to live. Hopefully the good guys outnumber the bad guys.
    That's the very point that made me accept the necessity of authority and government.

    Historically, bad guys win out over time. They simply never stop.

    And the "alphabet soup" of individuals you hope would come to As aid would, in doing so, become a defacto government.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  3. #553
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    That's the very point that made me accept the necessity of authority and government.

    Historically, bad guys win out over time. They simply never stop.

    And the "alphabet soup" of individuals you hope would come to As aid would, in doing so, become a defacto government.
    And the point of individual ownership is to prevent the government from becoming the 'bad guys.' The idea that the product of your mind and body belongs to you presupposes that you first have rightful possession of your mind and your body. If you do not, there is no rational basis to lay any legitimate claim to anything you produce.

  4. #554
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    That's the very point that made me accept the necessity of authority and government.

    Historically, bad guys win out over time. They simply never stop.

    And the "alphabet soup" of individuals you hope would come to As aid would, in doing so, become a defacto government.
    A group or agency organized for the purpose of mutual defense doesn't necessarily need to be granted the right to initiate aggression. As fletch just pointed out, once it crosses that line, it itself becomes the bad guy.

  5. #555
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    A group or agency organized for the purpose of mutual defense doesn't necessarily need to be granted the right to initiate aggression. As fletch just pointed out, once it crosses that line, it itself becomes the bad guy.
    But money wants more money, which historically involves taking it from somebody else.

    Some people are just ****ty and greedy and amoral.

    We live in a world where, all else being equal, the guy willing to frame his competitor for child molestation rises to the top.

    In the perfect libertarian world all y'all live in, the guy who buys an acre of river property upstream of farms that need the water is free to dam the river and thereby destroy the farms downstream. (Or, historically, wait til the farmers are foreclosed on, buy the dirt for a song, open up the dam and receive all the improvements made by the prior owners as pure profit.

    Laissez faire at its best.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  6. #556
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    But money wants more money, which historically involves taking it from somebody else.
    I, as I'm sure you do, oppose theft.

    Some people are just ****ty and greedy and amoral.
    I agree.


    We live in a world where, all else being equal, the guy willing to frame his competitor for child molestation rises to the top.

    In the perfect libertarian world all y'all live in, the guy who buys an acre of river property upstream of farms that need the water is free to dam the river and thereby destroy the farms downstream. (Or, historically, wait til the farmers are foreclosed on, buy the dirt for a song, open up the dam and receive all the improvements made by the prior owners as pure profit.
    I would argue that the guy doesn't own the river and has no right to dam it. The people below him who have been using the river have an equal ownership share in the river.

    Laissez faire at its best.
    I'm not advocating lawlessness.

  7. #557
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    And the point of individual ownership is to prevent the government from becoming the 'bad guys.'
    I don't see the direct correlation there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    The idea that the product of your mind and body belongs to you presupposes that you first have rightful possession of your mind and your body. If you do not, there is no rational basis to lay any legitimate claim to anything you produce.
    Society as a whole decides what is legitimate or not. Rationality is one method some people use to convince others that something is legitimate. Other people use loyalty, compassion, or some other consideration - you know, things that don't appear on business ledgers.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I would argue that the guy doesn't own the river and has no right to dam it. The people below him who have been using the river have an equal ownership share in the river.
    Does that mean someone who owns a shack on the edge of the Mississippi in New Orleans owns part of the creek that runs next to my house since it ultimately feeds into the Mississippi?
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I'm not advocating lawlessness.
    But without a means of enforcement that's exactly what you get.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #560
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I, as I'm sure you do, oppose theft.



    I agree.



    I would argue that the guy doesn't own the river and has no right to dam it. The people below him who have been using the river have an equal ownership share in the river.



    I'm not advocating lawlessness.
    Property rights long included water rights. Still do, afaik.

    Would you deny the owner of the property the right to say build a giant lake with the water running through his property?. The farmers use some of that water for their farms, leaving leas for those downstream.

    At what point is it "too much"?

    Who decides and who enforces?

    Who has the right to tell the owner he can't divert the water down another valley where he owns farmalnd?

    The only answer is government telling him he can't do so.

    Or war of some kind.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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