View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #531
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You are expressing yourself properly, but your philosophy is just limited in what it considers. Which is one of the reasons it is often inaccurate in predicting human behavior, the results of policies, and would end up in disaster and suffering if ever truly implemented.
    So you can envision a scenario where it would be right for one adult to say to another, "No, you're not doing X; you're going to do Y?" How, in your philosophy, does person A acquire this right to make decisions for person B?

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    So you can envision a scenario where it would be right for one adult to say to another, "No, you're not doing X; you're going to do Y?" How, in your philosophy, does person A acquire this right to make decisions for person B?
    No, I am smart enough to know it happens anyway whether we choose to acknowledge it or not.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    No, I am smart enough to know it happens anyway whether we choose to acknowledge it or not.
    I don't understand your response. When you say no, are you saying that you can't envision a scenario where it would be right for one adult to say to another, "No, you're not doing X; you're going to do Y?" Or are you saying that it's not right but that you know it happens anyway?

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I can buy that. There is no rationality to my belief that it is wrong to hurt other people. I simply believe it because I believe it to be right.
    And that's fine, that's enlightened self-interest, one of the most basic social standards that most people embrace. It comes from hundreds of thousands of years of social evolution.

    I don't think that one can leave the question unanswered. Either the individual is deciding, directing, and controlling himself, or someone else is.
    I didn't leave it unanswered, I said that the answer was "nobody". Nobody owns you.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Regardless of how the brain works, I am finding it hard to think of a scenario where I would consider it right for one adult to make a choice for another adult.
    "No, you are not going to rape that unwilling woman."

    There you go.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I don't understand your response. When you say no, are you saying that you can't envision a scenario where it would be right for one adult to say to another, "No, you're not doing X; you're going to do Y?" Or are you saying that it's not right but that you know it happens anyway?
    You can (do the envisioning of the answer being one or the other in absolutes), due to the limited scope in which you choose to consider the question. I view my expanded scope as more accurate and my scope does not yield simple answers like yours does.

    This all goes back to my points about human interaction, brain function, etc. I suspect we are as not free in our personalities as many others here think we are. In other words, I am more nature than most in the nature vs nurture debate. There is a lot about our very selves we have no real control over, thus its not always a black or white question as to what is controlling us.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-23-12 at 11:08 PM.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    "No, you are not going to rape that unwilling woman."

    There you go.
    I agree, it would be wrong for the rapist to make such a decision for the woman. It is the woman's choice to decide with whom she wishes to have sex, and the rapist has no right to violently override her choice.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You can (do the envisioning of the answer being one or the other in absolutes), due to the limited scope in which you choose to consider the question. I view my expanded scope as more accurate and my scope does not yield simple answers like yours does.

    This all goes back to my points about human interaction, brain function, etc. I suspect we are as not free in our personalities as many others here think we are. In other words, I am more nature than most in the nature vs nurture debate. There is a lot about our very selves we have no real control over, thus its not always a black or white question as to what is controlling us.
    I agree with you that it is not always a black or white question as to what is controlling us. But that's not what I am asking. I am asking whether you think it's right for one person to forcibly override the choice of another person? It's a question about ethics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I agree with you that it is not always a black or white question as to what is controlling us. But that's not what I am asking. I am asking whether you think it's right for one person to forcibly override the choice of another person? It's a question about ethics.
    so you seek to limit the question so fundamentally that you only regard the scope that your philosophy covers?

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I don't agree with you that influencing someone is the same as making a choice for someone.

    I may not be expressing myself properly. I am not talking about writing a catchy jingle and influencing someone to buy a particular brand of soap. I am referring to a situation where a person decides some course of action, say X, and I say, "No, you will do Y." That's what I mean by making a choice for someone else.
    Leading and following is a part of our species' nature.

    We casually accept subordinate positions all the time.

    Perhaps the difficulty is in perspective.

    Perhaps its not "possession" but the right to compel or deny.

    As a kid, reading college level by sixth grade, I frequently encountered referrent problems.

    An event that seriously colored my life was the first time I saw the "Question Authority" tee shirt.

    Rather than ask questions of those in authority, I questioned the concept of authority itself.

    "Why does anyone else have the right to tell you what you can and can't do?" Was a question that caused much adult squirming. Some variation of "just because" or "that's the way the world is" was pretty standard, and while kinda true, wasn't an answer to the question.

    After digging and looking and doing that semester of civics and the Constitution in 7th grade I came to the conclusion that at its heart, authority derives from the ABILITY to compel or deny. Force.

    The Founders take was the force is necessary but should be wielded collectively rather than by one or a few. Not a perfect solution, but it trundles along.

    I think our govt has "gone rogue", is no longer working in the best interests of everbody together but FOR the interests of everybodies little groups instead.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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