View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

Voters
50. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
Page 53 of 65 FirstFirst ... 343515253545563 ... LastLast
Results 521 to 530 of 645

Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #521
    Sage
    Cephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    CA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    29,774

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    To whom does your mind and body belong?
    Nobody. It simply exists. When I die, it stops existing.

    Who has functional control over you?
    Depends on what you mean. I can make my body do things, but I act only within the restrictions placed upon me by society. I can't go around shooting people, for instance.

    Who decides what you will do each day?
    Largely I do, although my boss has a say, so does my family, in fact, all of society can determine things I simply cannot do.

    Who has the right to 'sell, rent, mortgage, transfer, exchange or destroy' your body?
    Nobody. I cannot sell myself, it is against the law. I cannot rent, mortgage, or transfer myself either. As suicide is illegal in most areas as well, nobody can destroy my body either, with or without my consent.

    Whoever that person is meets the definition of your bodys owner.
    What if all of those questions have separate answers?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  2. #522
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Penn's Woods
    Last Seen
    09-01-12 @ 09:09 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,984

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Beliefs that cannot be supported by evidence or rational debate are irrational on their face.
    I can buy that. There is no rationality to my belief that it is wrong to hurt other people. I simply believe it because I believe it to be right.

    Or you can believe that ownership of a human person simply does not exist at all, or hey, why not that all people are owned by cats? The cats seem to think so anyhow. There is no dichotomy, which I've been saying for a while now.
    I don't think that one can leave the question unanswered. Either the individual is deciding, directing, and controlling himself, or someone else is.

  3. #523
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
    Last Seen
    09-14-14 @ 02:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    14,700

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Unfortunately the government owns my body but I own my mind. The government can put me in prison if I don't follow their rules but they can't tell me how to think or what to think.

  4. #524
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I'm wondering what states would be between A and Z. I'm guess they would represent movement from each person having the absolute right to decide, direct, and control his own self (A) to others having the absolute right to decide, direct, or control (Z). If that's the case, I recognize that there are gradations of suckage. I'd rather live in a A, but B would be better than Z.
    Maybe I used a bad scaling.

    Your view is either a person controls their actions or someone else does.

    My view takes into account things like influence, manipulation, the strength of will power, the strength of foreknowledge, intelligence and problem solving. Absolute control requires perfect knowledge, will, and freedom from consequence. One would have to be a deity to have absolute control over one's self. Humans are a bit different. One difference is that people have conscious and subconscious portions of their brain. We don't always know when we are being influenced in our decisions, so we can't always know that our decisions are actually ours. Thrown in the continual battle of the pre-frontal cortex vs our older, more animal brain, this analysis gets even more complex. Take into account the role of social pressures (which can be every bit as painful on a neurochemical levels as physical pressures, which means they levie the same level of influence on us as a species), relationships, etc and the picture is very muddy indeed.

    The classical idea of human ownership, I think, relies very strongly on the power of the pre-frontal cortex (which holds our personality, will, and ego) to be the only part of the person that the philosophy deals with, it takes a much simpler view of the issue than I do, which takes into account more information about human nature learned since the 1700s.

  5. #525
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Penn's Woods
    Last Seen
    09-01-12 @ 09:09 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,984

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Maybe I used a bad scaling.

    Your view is either a person controls their actions or someone else does.

    My view takes into account things like influence, manipulation, the strength of will power, the strength of foreknowledge, intelligence and problem solving. Absolute control requires perfect knowledge, will, and freedom from consequence. One would have to be a deity to have absolute control over one's self. Humans are a bit different. One difference is that people have conscious and subconscious portions of their brain. We don't always know when we are being influenced in our decisions, so we can't always know that our decisions are actually ours. Thrown in the continual battle of the pre-frontal cortex vs our older, more animal brain, this analysis gets even more complex. Take into account the role of social pressures (which can be every bit as painful on a neurochemical levels as physical pressures, which means they levie the same level of influence on us as a species), relationships, etc and the picture is very muddy indeed.

    The classical idea of human ownership, I think, relies very strongly on the power of the pre-frontal cortex (which holds our personality, will, and ego) to be the only part of the person that the philosophy deals with, it takes a much simpler view of the issue than I do, which takes into account more information about human nature learned since the 1700s.
    I agree with you. People don't have absolute control over themselves. A you point out, one's choices may be be influenced by any number of factors, including the subconscious. The ethical question is simply who gets to do the choosing, the person or someone other than the person?

  6. #526
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I agree with you. People don't have absolute control over themselves. A you point out, one's choices may be be influenced by any number of factors, including the subconscious. The ethical question is simply who gets to do the choosing, the person or someone other than the person?
    Its a good question and often one with a very complex answer. This is why I brought up the points about how the brain works. What we often think is our conscious choice is in fact subconsciously influenced by a whole host of factors. So to answer your question, who gets to do the choosing? Well I think the real answer is "it depends ..."

  7. #527
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Penn's Woods
    Last Seen
    09-01-12 @ 09:09 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,984

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Its a good question and often one with a very complex answer. This is why I brought up the points about how the brain works. What we often think is our conscious choice is in fact subconsciously influenced by a whole host of factors. So to answer your question, who gets to do the choosing? Well I think the real answer is "it depends ..."
    Regardless of how the brain works, I am finding it hard to think of a scenario where I would consider it right for one adult to make a choice for another adult.

  8. #528
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Regardless of how the brain works, I am finding it hard to think of a scenario where I would consider it right for one adult to make a choice for another adult.
    The simple fact is that because of the points I brought up, you do every single day, whether through limiting their choices, changing their circumstances, influencing them, or any number of interactions. Every single action you take ripples through society and has these effects. This is why the larger fabric has to be addressed and libertarian solutions are often inadequate.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-23-12 at 10:32 PM.

  9. #529
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Penn's Woods
    Last Seen
    09-01-12 @ 09:09 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,984

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    The simple fact is that because of the points I brought up, you do every single day, whether through limiting their choices, changing their circumstances, influencing them, or any number of interactions. Every single action you take ripples through society and has these effects. This is why the larger fabric has to be addressed and libertarian solutions are often inadequate.
    I don't agree with you that influencing someone is the same as making a choice for someone.

    I may not be expressing myself properly. I am not talking about writing a catchy jingle and influencing someone to buy a particular brand of soap. I am referring to a situation where a person decides some course of action, say X, and I say, "No, you will do Y." That's what I mean by making a choice for someone else.

  10. #530
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I don't agree with you that influencing someone is the same as making a choice for someone.

    I may not be expressing myself properly. I am not talking about writing a catchy jingle and influencing someone to buy a particular brand of soap. I am referring to a situation where a person decides some course of action, say X, and I say, "No, you will do Y." That's what I mean by making a choice for someone else.
    You are expressing yourself properly, but your philosophy is just limited in what it considers. Which is one of the reasons it is often inaccurate in predicting human behavior, the results of policies, and would end up in disaster and suffering if ever truly implemented.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-23-12 at 10:47 PM.

Page 53 of 65 FirstFirst ... 343515253545563 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •