View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #511
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Given your question, the term properly depends on one's philosophy I assume.
    Yes, I imagine it would.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    You are right. As Locke put it, "everyman has a property in his own Person." This is a fundamental belief that is characteristic of the classical liberal and libertarian traditions.
    It can be fundamental all you want, I'm only interested in whether or not it's factually true and so far, libertarians have been entirely unable to back it up, beyond making repeated empty claims that it's so.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It can be fundamental all you want, I'm only interested in whether or not it's factually true and so far, libertarians have been entirely unable to back it up, beyond making repeated empty claims that it's so.
    To whom does your mind and body belong? Who has functional control over you? Who decides what you will do each day? Who has the right to 'sell, rent, mortgage, transfer, exchange or destroy' your body? Whoever that person is meets the definition of your bodys owner.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    To whom does your mind and body belong? Who has functional control over you? Who decides what you will do each day? Who has the right to 'sell, rent, mortgage, transfer, exchange or destroy' your body? Whoever that person is meets the definition of your bodys owner.
    The problem is that a person cannot be functionally separated from their body, its not a matter of owning their body but being their body. Its a subtle but important difference.

    Also, if its control as you define it, does a paraplegic own their body?

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It can be fundamental all you want, I'm only interested in whether or not it's factually true and so far, libertarians have been entirely unable to back it up, beyond making repeated empty claims that it's so.
    It's an ethical premise, not a fact. It can't be proven or dis-proven. It is a matter of one's beliefs.

    You either believe that ownership (the right to decide, to direct, to control) of a human person is vested in the person himself, or you believe that it is vested in some other person(s).

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    It's an ethical premise, not a fact. It can't be proven or dis-proven. It is a matter of one's beliefs.

    You either believe that ownership (the right to decide, to direct, to control) of a human person is vested in the person himself, or you believe that it is vested in some other person(s).
    Thank you for your honesty. Your view on control (ownership is another matter entirely) is a bit more black and white than I see what is actually going on, but at least you got the cannot be proven or disproven part right.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-23-12 at 09:32 PM.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Thank you for your honesty. Your view on control (ownership is another matter entirely) is a bit more black and white than I see what is actually going on, but at least you got the cannot be proven or disproven part right.
    Thanks mega

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Thanks mega
    Actually your post made me realize something. Probably the reason you are so passionate about this issue while I am far less passionate (I tend to get into this issue because inaccurate statements sometimes annoy me) is that while you see this issue of control as a or b, I tend to see it more as A to Z with a whole host of states in between. That complexity, at least for me, tends to not engage my emotions so much as a desire to analyze the situation and marvel at the complex and wonderful ways that humans interact with their world.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-23-12 at 09:41 PM.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    It's an ethical premise, not a fact. It can't be proven or dis-proven. It is a matter of one's beliefs.
    Beliefs that cannot be supported by evidence or rational debate are irrational on their face.

    You either believe that ownership (the right to decide, to direct, to control) of a human person is vested in the person himself, or you believe that it is vested in some other person(s).
    Or you can believe that ownership of a human person simply does not exist at all, or hey, why not that all people are owned by cats? The cats seem to think so anyhow. There is no dichotomy, which I've been saying for a while now.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Actually your post made me realize something. Probably the reason you are so passionate about this issue while I am far less passionate (I tend to get into this issue because inaccurate statements sometimes annoy me) is that while you see this issue of control as a or b, I tend to see it more as A to Z with a whole host of states in between. That complexity, at least for me, tends to not engage my emotions so much as a desire to analyze the situation and wonder at the complex and wonderful ways that humans interact with their world.
    I'm wondering what states would be between A and Z. I'm guess they would represent movement from each person having the absolute right to decide, direct, and control his own self (A) to others having the absolute right to decide, direct, or control (Z). If that's the case, I recognize that there are gradations of suckage. I'd rather live in a A, but B would be better than Z.

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