View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #501
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Yup, which was not one of the two choices offered and thus, not part of the false dichotomy.
    Cephus claims that it is true that "nobody owns anybody"?
    Looks like you made a claim about no one. Literally. It's not a claim about anything. I don't refute your claim about nothing.

    Did you mean instead, perhaps, that every (each, any?) person, lacks ownership of every other person? That will lead to you reaffriming the logic choice that someone does indeed make that choice...

  2. #502
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Looks like you made a claim about no one. Literally. It's not a claim about anything. I don't refute your claim about nothing.
    There's no such thing as legitimate human ownership. Better?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #503
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Okay, well then you're wrong.

    I'm not fine with any agency that claims a territorial monopoly of ultimate jurisdiction and taxation. Such an agency, in order to enforce its claim, would necessarily violate the person and property of others.
    But your fine with it if he claims its his territory ....

    Possibly. But mankind being what it is, murderers, robbers, thieves, thugs, and con artists will always exist, and life in society will be impossible if they are not checked by the use of defensive force. Individuals will always need to defend themselves and their property from such people, or to establish agencies to do so on their behalf.
    Your really not getting this are you, i'm saying property, private estates, are essencially the same thing as kingdoms.

  4. #504
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    But your fine with it if he claims its his territory ....

    Your really not getting this are you, i'm saying property, private estates, are essencially the same thing as kingdoms.
    You're right. I wasn't getting that. So you're saying that my home is like a kingdom? That is an interesting view I've never heard before.

    So whom would you prefer owned my home, rather than me?

  5. #505
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    I think the ultimately problem with this thread and the reason people are talking past each other is that one side thinks ownership has to happen, either by self or another. The other party sees ownership as one of many sets of options.

    Nothing will be accomplished here until both sides are willing to listen.

  6. #506
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I think the ultimately problem with this thread and the reason people are talking past each other is that one side thinks ownership has to happen, either by self or another. The other party sees ownership as one of many sets of options.

    Nothing will be accomplished here until both sides are willing to listen.
    The problem is, the libertarian side must have self-ownership because it's the foundation for their entire philosophy. Without it, most of what they say doesn't make any sense.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #507
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The problem is, the libertarian side must have self-ownership because it's the foundation for their entire philosophy. Without it, most of what they say doesn't make any sense.
    I agree, they find themselves of a position of having to defend it since they are wedded to their philosophy.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-23-12 at 02:58 PM.

  8. #508
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The problem is, the libertarian side must have self-ownership because it's the foundation for their entire philosophy. Without it, most of what they say doesn't make any sense.
    You are right. As Locke put it, "everyman has a property in his own Person." This is a fundamental belief that is characteristic of the classical liberal and libertarian traditions.

  9. #509
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I think the ultimately problem with this thread and the reason people are talking past each other is that one side thinks ownership has to happen, either by self or another. The other party sees ownership as one of many sets of options.

    Nothing will be accomplished here until both sides are willing to listen.
    As I said earlier, I think the term "ownership" is unfortunate, since people associate ownership with tangible property, and people are not property.

    A better way to phrase the question might have been "Who can properly make decision governing your life?"

  10. #510
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    As I said earlier, I think the term "ownership" is unfortunate, since people associate ownership with tangible property, and people are not property.

    A better way to phrase the question might have been "Who can properly make decision governing your life?"
    Given your question, the term properly depends on one's philosophy I assume.

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