View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #41
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is not at all the same thing.

    If you do not like the social contract, you have the power to withdraw from it at any time.
    really? is there a form you fill out, or something like that?

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps you could be honest enough to knock down the rest of the dominos after somebody accepts that opening axiom of yours?

    So if this belief is accepted, then what then do you believe is the eventual conclusion you must make from it?

    And I bet it has a whole lot to do with decreasing the power of government and taxes.
    You seem to be saying that you base your refusal to accept an ethical principle simply because of how that principle might then guide your behavior.

    This seems to be putting the cart before the horse. To me, it seems more sensible to FIRST understand the ethical rules of interpersonal behavior and THEN follow those rules to act in accordance with these rules. One does not discard ethical principles simply because they might force one to regulate one's behavior.

  3. #43
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    No. I am not a commodity that can be owned. I am a man, not property.
    Not very progressive of your at all. The modern man accepts his owner, while the old stodgy conservative fights to maintain his self-ownership to the bitter end.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You're welcome
    I think that the OP is using the word own as a verb, not an adjective.

  5. #45
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    really? is there a form you fill out, or something like that?
    When you become of age and you realize we have laws and a system that people follow, you can then make your choice. And yes, we have forms to fill out indicating that you are part of this system. Drivers license forms. Voter forms. Military recruitment forms. Marriage license forms. All manner of legal papers which indicate the willingness of the citizen to be part of the system.

    You yourself have filled out many of them. All of your own free will as an American.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #46
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    You seem to be saying that you base your refusal to accept an ethical principle simply because of how that principle might then guide your behavior.

    This seems to be putting the cart before the horse. To me, it seems more sensible to FIRST understand the ethical rules of interpersonal behavior and THEN follow those rules to act in accordance with these rules. One does not discard ethical principles simply because they might force one to regulate one's behavior.
    No, I am looking at the whole picture and what your nefarious plot really is all about.
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    really? is there a form you fill out, or something like that?
    A. THE IMMIGRATION & NATIONALITY ACT
    Section 349(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(5)) is the section of law that governs the ability of a United States citizen to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship. That section of law provides for the loss of nationality by voluntarily performing the following act with the intent to relinquish his or her U.S. nationality:
    "(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state , in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State" (emphasis added).
    B. ELEMENTS OF RENUNCIATION
    A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:
    1. appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
    2. in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
    3. sign an oath of renunciation
    Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect. Because of the provisions of section 349(a)(5), Americans cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States. In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds, as discussed below.
    Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship

  8. #48
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    No, I am looking at the whole picture and what your nefarious plot really is all about.
    In a kindergarten class a long time ago:

    Teacher: Now little Haymarket, give Mary back her cookies. Remember, we keep our hands to ourselves and we don't take other people's things.

    Haymarket: Come now, teacher. If I were to accept your self-imposed moral axioms, not only would I not be free to take Mary's cookies, I would not be able to take Johnny's lunch money, or to beat up Michael if he fails in his obligation to help me with my homework. I see the whole picture, and understand what your nefarious plot is all about.

  9. #49
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    In a kindergarten class a long time ago:

    Teacher: Now little Haymarket, give Mary back her cookies. Remember, we keep our hands to ourselves and we don't take other people's things.

    Haymarket: Come now, teacher. If I were to accept your self-imposed moral axioms, not only would I not be free to take Mary's cookies, I would not be able to take Johnny's lunch money, or to beat up Michael if he fails in his obligation to help me with my homework. I see the whole picture, and understand what your nefarious plot is all about.
    I have no idea what that little play might mean.

    You really don't like it when I work the libertarian maze backwards do you?
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  10. #50
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I have no idea what that little play might mean.
    I know.

    You really don't like it when I work the libertarian maze backwards do you?
    I don't know what you mean by "work the libertarian maze backwards", so I can't say whether I like it or don't like it.

    EDIT - Ah, you mean discussing ethical principles and their implications. No, I actually love when you do that.
    Last edited by Centinel; 06-18-12 at 09:23 AM.

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