View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #481
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And yes, I'll take that option, nobody is owned by anybody including themselves.
    Finallly. And when you do the above, you logically are choosing one of those two options. (demonstrating there is no false dichotomy)

    You originally claimed:
    People are making a false dichotomy here, that if you don't own yourself, then someone else has to own you.
    Own - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    1. Own: to have power or mastery over <wanted to own his own life>
    (Ironic choice of the <> example the dictionary chose, considering you disagree with wikipedia, the dictionary, me...just saying)
    2. Having the power to determine who has power over Bob, is termed "owning Bob".
    3. Cephus claims that "[Bob] does not own himself"
    4. Cephus is determining who owns Bob.
    ->Cephus owns Bob.

    Yet, you claimed earlier that not owning yourself, does NOT imply someone else owns you. But clearly it did. The only other option is silence Cephus, don't make the claim about who owns other people, and there will be literally <nothing> to disagree on. You can't escape it with semantics either. You can insist that "own" can't apply to a person, but we'd just then find a new word that you are comfortable with, that does mean "power to control ownership", and we'd plug it all right back into the same argument and get the same result.

  2. #482
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    As a citizen we become somewhat state property. All citizens of a country agree to abide by the laws of the federal, state and local jurisdiction, where they reside. Now any person can sit on the floor and refuse to do anything, move or even eat. We have rights over our own actions and are held accountable for them positive or negative but no other agency or persons according to our laws has the right to invade our expectation of privacy or deny us our constitutional rights and freedom. It's a compromise or balance between being controlled by boundaries set by society over improper actions and neglect to ensure domestic tranquility and the protection of individual rights. The absolutes of self ownership and non ownership do not exist realistically in a civilization. We are a community of people that are bound together to improve our quality of life, chance of survival and betterment of our neighbors.
    I don't think of myself as property, not even state property, but the State can and does exercise power that affects my life.

    The rest of your post is right on.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
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  3. #483
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    So I take it you wanted that third option after all.
    Why don't you put forward your options as simply as I did?
    I did it in one sentence (Your premise is false). Anything else?
    If you had a point, you'd do precisely what I did, with regards to argument you think is a false choice/false dichotomy. Which premise in the self-ownership argument is false?

  4. #484
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Possibly. But mankind being what it is, murderers, robbers, thieves, thugs, and con artists will always exist, and life in society will be impossible if they are not checked by the use of defensive force. Individuals will always need to defend themselves and their property from such people, or to establish agencies to do so on their behalf.
    Get rid of property and you've taken all but murderers out of the equation. Without property to fight over, the "robbers, thieves, thugs, and con artists" have no craft to practice.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  5. #485
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I did it in one sentence (Your premise is false). Anything else?
    If you had a point, you'd do precisely what I did, with regards to argument you think is a false choice/false dichotomy.

    Which premise in the self-ownership argument is false?
    I see you just glossed over what I said. I asked you to restate your argument in simple terms, as my example was in simple terms. Apparently that's too much to ask of you.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-22-12 at 12:59 PM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #486
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ethics very from people to people, its a terrible thing to base an argument on since its only a matter of opinion and not something that can be proven or disproven.
    That's wrong.

    First, science cannot be proven or disproven either (it's falsifiable). Let's assume you accept that minor correction and we agree that the scientific method is robust and that once something has been well evidenced and peer reviewed, independantly verified, etc., etc., we get pretty damn close to proof. The point here is that you can't attribute this idea of certainty (proof, proven) to science in an attempt to show how unproven ethics are in comparison.

    Back to ethics. Ethics can vary sure, just as science can vary. However, once you codify the ethics (in English for example, or formal logic, etc.), and ethical rules are show to be illogical, then they are then falsified as being "ethical rules".

    Use the underlying assumptions of science (since you accept science) as an example, say #2:
    (2) that this objective reality is governed by natural laws;
    If some hack scientist wrote a hypothesis that involved something to the effect of:
    "A supernatural ghost will then do..."

    Do you really think this has to be experimented on and tested, peer-reviewed, etc., before it can be determined to be false? No. It's in contradiction to the underlying fundamental assumption of the scientific method (#2 above) That's why it's rejected as "not science". Same way the scientific community rejects matters of religion. You can't create a test for prayer because it contradicts the underlying assumptions. So it's thrown out as not science. And when you agree we can reject illogical claims, then at the very least, you agree that ethical rules are not ONLY a matter of opinon, that within some agreed upon logical framework, some can logically be shown to be "not ethics".

  7. #487
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I don't think of myself as property, not even state property, but the State can and does exercise power that affects my life.

    The rest of your post is right on.
    I did say "somewhat" because as a citizen you become a member of a group. Though we retain a certain amount of legal autonomy, even when bound in a marriage. As having rights through the state no other group or country can establish power or control over us physically making the state responsible for our bodily protection. After we are deceased the state is responsible for disposing of our bodies if family can't afford it for public safety. Through our social protection agencies we are in a sense wards of the state, when we can't afford to take care of ourselves. Through a draft the government can force its citizens to serve in the armed forces to protect our country. Under the law we have an obligation to obey ordinances, report unlawful activity and aid individuals in direct harm. We are physical property to our social standards more than we're immediately or directly aware. But most of it is contingent on certain situations and circumstances.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  8. #488
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I see you just glossed over what I said. I asked you to restate your argument in simple terms, as my example was in simple terms. Apparently that's too much to ask of you.
    It can't get much more simple unless we use some compressed language other than english

    1. Mach has beaten his wife.
    2. It has either stopped, or not.
    ->Your premise 1. is false.


    Surely that's not too many characters for you.

    And, the follow up question:
    Do the same to my earlier claim. Which premise of mine was false? I pointed it out in one quick response, surely anyone can do the same instead of all the typing.

  9. #489
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    It can't get much more simple unless we use some compressed language other than english

    1. Mach has beaten his wife.
    2. It has either stopped, or not.
    ->Your premise 1. is false.


    Surely that's not too many characters for you.

    And, the follow up question:
    Do the same to my earlier claim. Which premise of mine was false? I pointed it out in one quick response, surely anyone can do the same instead of all the typing.
    Are you incapable of restating your claim/assertion/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-it of self-ownership?

    I have asked several times that you restate your earlier claim.

    If you are not incapable of restating your earlier claim then please do so.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-22-12 at 01:16 PM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #490
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Finallly. And when you do the above, you logically are choosing one of those two options. (demonstrating there is no false dichotomy)

    You originally claimed:

    Own - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    1. Own: to have power or mastery over <wanted to own his own life>
    (Ironic choice of the <> example the dictionary chose, considering you disagree with wikipedia, the dictionary, me...just saying)
    2. Having the power to determine who has power over Bob, is termed "owning Bob".
    3. Cephus claims that "[Bob] does not own himself"
    4. Cephus is determining who owns Bob.
    ->Cephus owns Bob.

    Yet, you claimed earlier that not owning yourself, does NOT imply someone else owns you. But clearly it did. The only other option is silence Cephus, don't make the claim about who owns other people, and there will be literally <nothing> to disagree on. You can't escape it with semantics either. You can insist that "own" can't apply to a person, but we'd just then find a new word that you are comfortable with, that does mean "power to control ownership", and we'd plug it all right back into the same argument and get the same result.
    Own - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    1. Own (verb): To have or hold as property

    There's your falsehood. Neither Bob nor I are property.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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