View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #461
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Are you under the impression that I can't translate these things into the "property mentality" if I so desire? Trust me, I am quite capable of such a feat as I'm sure many here are. It's not a question of understanding the concept, it's a rejection of it. I guess that wasn't clear?
    Well yes, as matter of fact I was under that impression because you kept deflecting to "others having ownership" or "others having power" or "ownership over others" or "having power over others" without ever really acknowledging the ownership or power one has over his or her own self.

    You and the other property mentality types here seem to have problems translating, though. You can't seem to convert these common actions into power instead of ownership. I was just trying to help that process along.
    Why so angry? It's just an exchange of philosophical concepts, Mo.

  2. #462
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Exactly, slavery is an extreme example of owning others. So if others can own someone then why can't a person own his or herself?
    No one can own another. One can only exercise power over another. This a good example of your deflection. You've already admitted that slavery is ownership over others. Self ownership does not mean "owning others" or "power over others".


    Demanding ownership over others is slavery, otherwise where would a kind and benevolent slave owner get his power?
    "A kind and benevolent slave owner"?!? I'm sorry but ... LOL! Yes, believe it or not, not all slave owners were bad and ruthless. Take Thomas Jefferson, for instance.
    As a courtesy, would you mind not typing your answers in my quote box?
    Last edited by Moot; 06-22-12 at 03:23 AM.

  3. #463
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Self-ownership is just an expression referring to one's liberty of self-determination. There's no risk of someone else owning me just because I say I "own myself," because it's true that my life isn't a commodity to be bought and sold. I never purchased myself, nor engaged in some other exchange or contract in order to have freedom over my own life. My right over my life is natural. But I could still say "I own my life," if I want to express and defend my rights by expressing it that way.

    The point is this: if someone kills me, that is murder, denying me my right to life, robbing me of my future. If I am forced to work for free, that is slavery, denying me my right to liberty, robbing me of my present. And if someone takes my assets from me, or inflates the currency to devalue them, that is theft, denying me my right to property, robbing me of the part of my past that I used to earn and save for it.

    Your life is your future, your liberty is your present, and your property is the part of your past that you used to create it. If I say "I own myself," I'm really just asserting my right to life, liberty and property.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 06-22-12 at 03:34 AM.

  4. #464
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    For the concept self ownerhisp to be coherant, that would mean I can sell myself, and then have absolutely NO RIGHTS of autonomy and have someone else have all the rights of exclusiveness to myself, and I would not have that right, which is not only impossible but rediculosuly stupid.

  5. #465
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    which would mean that if you were jacking off your owner could sue you for messing with hsi property, but how could he sue you, who is his property over you, so would he sue you for your property? But how could you have any property since you were his property and he has exclusive rights to you, but how can he have exclusive rights to you when you are you ....

    YOu see how stupid this concept is?

    Trying to make everything property.

  6. #466
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It really doesn't require perfect theoretical people, merely a willingness to let people suffer the consequences of their own stupidity, or enjoy the successes of making intelligently sound decisions.
    What about when I or other innocents are left to suffer the consequences of anothers stupidity which exists because you got rid of government or weakened it to the point where it was impotent?

    Those innocents are today protected by government and by government programs and regulatory functions in law and in practice.

    For example: let us say that libertarians achieve their dream society and government is reduced to a very small number of abilities and powers. One of the things we get rid of is the FDA. You start selling a drug that becomes the modern version of thalidomide.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKo0GUrM1mQ

    It kills some and leaves behind a wake of damaged people that will need expensive care for decades.

    How is this libertarian serving of the free market a good thing for society?

    What happens to those people?
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-22-12 at 07:16 AM.
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  7. #467
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You used the term "government" in your second post. Between our posts that's the first time it's been used so what did you mean when you used it??
    What I meant by government (or state) is an agency that exercises a territorial monopoly of ultimate jurisdiction (decision making) and taxation. A government is the ultimate arbiter in all cases of conflict, even those conflicts involving itself.

    Does this sense of the word match up with your idea of government?

    Anarchy is lack of government but still meets the requirements of "a social order in which everyone is free to act in any way he wishes as long as he doesn't harm others or their property".
    Okay, I'll agree with that.

    You've created a whole legal system - book keeping, interpretation, judgement, and enforcement. Who will you trust to do the book keeping, interpretation, and judgement? You also seem to have established mercenaries.
    I agree. In a stateless social order, people would develop systems and institutions to perform all these functions.

  8. #468
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    What I meant by government (or state) is an agency that exercises a territorial monopoly of ultimate jurisdiction (decision making) and taxation. A government is the ultimate arbiter in all cases of conflict, even those conflicts involving itself.
    Sounds like a private estate, the difference is a "government" is accountable to the people iwthin the territory (given a democratic government), whereas a private estate is just a dictatorship.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Sounds like a private estate, the difference is a "government" is accountable to the people iwthin the territory (given a democratic government), whereas a private estate is just a dictatorship.
    Agreed. In a democracy, some state agents are elected by the voters. Nonetheless, democratic governments still exercise a territorial monopoly of ultimate jurisdiction and taxation.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    "...I trust I understand, and truly estimate the right of self-government. My faith in the proposition that each man should do precisely as he pleases with all which is exclusively his own, lies at the foundation of the sense of justice there is in me. I extend the principles to communities of men, as well as to individuals. I so extend it, because it is politically wise, as well as naturally just; politically wise, in saving us from broils about matters which do not concern us. Here, or at Washington, I would not trouble myself with the oyster laws of Virginia, or the cranberry laws of Indiana.

    The doctrine of self government is right---absolutely and eternally right---but it has no just application, as here attempted. Or perhaps I should rather say that whether it has such just application depends upon whether a negro is not or is a man. If he is not a man, why in that case, he who is a man may, as a matter of self-government, do just as he pleases with him. But if the negro is a man, is it not to that extent, a total destruction of self-government, to say that he too shall not govern himself? When the white man governs himself that is self-government; but when he governs himself, and also governs another man, that is more than self-government---that is despotism. If the negro is a man, why then my ancient faith teaches me that "all men are created equal;" and that there can be no moral right in connection with one man's making a slave of another...."

    Abraham Lincoln, 1854 Peoria speech

    Peoria Speech, October 16, 1854 - Lincoln Home National Historic Site

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