View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #451
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I agree the energy my body came from is part of the universe. Most scientific absolutists will assert that my body is all that I am and yet since my bodies energy is part of the universe, maybe I'm more than I know?
    Not until you can present evidence for it, but that's off topic for this thead and forum.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #452
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    as a matter of practicality, property.. as applied to humans.. is true.
    one need only to acknowledge the existence of slavery to see that it is true... Humans can be, and are, property( at least partially)... that is indisputable.
    A lot of people hold power of various types and scale over others; Slavery is an extreme example of that. But power over another does not demand ownership. All it demands is a society in which that power is recognized and accepted. In most Western societies, all of us have someone (usually several someones) that has power over us in some way or other. If you're married most likely your spouse has power over you.



    Taking a view from a property worshiper's standpoint, does that mean we're like little corporations with some of our fellow citizens holding pieces of us? LOL!
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  3. #453
    Light△Bender

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Not until you can present evidence for it, but that's off topic for this thead and forum.
    I can be more than I know without presenting evidence of it too someone else. It's my secret....lol


    Find out where freedom exists and then you'll know by what means someone is owned or controlled. You can lock a persons body up in prison for life controlling their actions but have you controlled their mind?
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  4. #454
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Let me add this-
    This is internet masturbation over a condition that can't exist in the real world and is something the semi-philosophical debate, thinking they are deep, while drinking over priced caffiene drinks and eating THC laced brownies.

    A nerd coffee clatsh. It reminds me of the palp Stuart Smalley would babble or would be on some hippy poster.

    By the time you factor in all the 'real world' limitations each 'libertarian' agrees to in differing amounts, this whole exercise becomes silly at best.

    But prattle on, it is fun to read....

  5. #455
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Let me add this-
    This is internet masturbation over a condition that can't exist in the real world and is something the semi-philosophical debate, thinking they are deep, while drinking over priced caffiene drinks and eating THC laced brownies.

    A nerd coffee clatsh. It reminds me of the palp Stuart Smalley would babble or would be on some hippy poster.

    By the time you factor in all the 'real world' limitations each 'libertarian' agrees to in differing amounts, this whole exercise becomes silly at best.

    But prattle on, it is fun to read....
    Real world limitations? Yes there are limitations. Libertarianism =/= anarchism.
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  6. #456
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Let me add this-
    This is internet masturbation over a condition that can't exist in the real world and is something the semi-philosophical debate, thinking they are deep, while drinking over priced caffiene drinks and eating THC laced brownies.

    A nerd coffee clatsh. It reminds me of the palp Stuart Smalley would babble or would be on some hippy poster.

    By the time you factor in all the 'real world' limitations each 'libertarian' agrees to in differing amounts, this whole exercise becomes silly at best.

    But prattle on, it is fun to read....
    Carl Jung interpreted the Ouroboros (snake eating its own tail) as having an archetypal significance to the human psyche. The Jungian psychologist Erich Neumann writes of it as a representation of the pre-ego "dawn state", depicting the undifferentiated infancy experience of both mankind and the individual child. We are neither owned, nor self realized as long as we stay trapped in the social cycle of redundancy. It's like saying science without faith is lame and faith without science is blind.

    Now that was mental masturbation.
    Last edited by grip; 06-21-12 at 11:59 PM.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  7. #457
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    The SCOTUS ruled women have recognized rights up until viability of the fetus. Interesting that you would compare prostitution to having an abortion. Unless I'm mistaken women don't sell their aborted fetuses as a commodity or to create value. (As an aside, sadly, that does happen in some cultures.) Some women do however use their bodies as a commodity (prostitution) and as such it has value as long as someone is willing to pay for it. The government has chosen not to protect that right but it doesn't mean that women don't use their bodies as property that can be sold with or without their consent.
    It was not my intent to compare prostitution to abortion. I addressed one, prostitution, then the other in a different paragraph, double-spaced from the first.

    My reference to prostitution and it's illegality was merely to point out that ownership of people is an illusion and it serves no useful purpose to believe in such a thing. Prostitutes are nothing more than skilled laborers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Well what it is the protected right to privacy if not the reasonable expection without government interference to have privacy in one's home (property) and health information (property) and identity (property)?
    Everyone has a reasonable right to privacy. That's what the law states, yes? Why must such right issue from property alone? Isn't it sufficient to simply state that people have the right to privacy with respect to their person? Why must we insist it be owned? What is to be gained by such an assertion??

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    You can own yourself. The conflict as I see it is the emotional objection to being considered property and yet that is exactly what the government considers a "person". The government and insurance companies even go further to give a "person" value according to his/her most productive years in the labor force as if they were a commodity. Employers consider the employee a commodity that can be bought to help add value to a product.
    I am all too aware of how The System sees people and I remind others of this on occasion. But as you've just pointed out, it's not the person who is being valuated, it's their contribution to society that's being valuated: "productive years in the labor force", "a commodity" referring not to the person but to their labor. Certainly the System sets a value on labor but why must labor originate from something that is already owned when it is only people from which labor originates? There is no reason to insist in ownership of people.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-22-12 at 12:22 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #458
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Laughing,
    Never said it had to be one or the other, but by the time you get done checking off all the limitations, and they vary person to person it becomes a big pile of not much.

    Snake eating it's butt, NOW that's the kinda mental circle jerk I am talking about!

    I stopped owning myself when I raised my right hand and repeated after a butterbar.

    Even later I say 'I do' and it was a done deal.

    Past that 'self ownership' is just stroking it...

  9. #459
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    A lot of people hold power of various types and scale over others; Slavery is an extreme example of that.
    Exactly, slavery is an extreme example of owning others. So if others can own someone then why can't a person own his or herself?

    But power over another does not demand ownership.
    Demanding ownership over others is slavery, otherwise where would a kind and benevolent slave owner get his power?


    All it demands is a society in which that power is recognized and accepted. In most Western societies, all of us have someone (usually several someones) that has power over us in some way or other. If you're married most likely your spouse has power over you.
    What you described is a contract and in signing a contract, each side is giving consent to give up "some" ownership of self....especially in a marriage.

    Taking a view from a property worshiper's standpoint, does that mean we're like little corporations with some of our fellow citizens holding pieces of us? LOL!
    Yes, you give up "some" self ownership when you borrow and use your labor as collateral. You also give some "self ownership" when you consent to pay taxes in exchange for government security and protection of life and property.

  10. #460
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Exactly, slavery is an extreme example of owning others. So if others can own someone then why can't a person own his or herself?
    No one can own another. One can only exercise power over another.

    Demanding ownership over others is slavery, otherwise where would a kind and benevolent slave owner get his power?
    "A kind and benevolent slave owner"?!? I'm sorry but ... LOL!

    What you described is a contract and in signing a contract, each side is giving consent to give up "some" ownership of self....especially in a marriage.

    Yes, you give up "some" self ownership when you borrow and use your labor as collateral. You also give some "self ownership" when you consent to pay taxes in exchange for government security and protection of life and property.
    Are you under the impression that I can't translate these things into the "property mentality" if I so desire? Trust me, I am quite capable of such a feat as I'm sure many here are. It's not a question of understanding the concept, it's a rejection of it. I guess that wasn't clear?

    You and the other property mentality types here seem to have problems translating, though. You can't seem to convert these common actions into power instead of ownership. I was just trying to help that process along.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-22-12 at 02:39 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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