View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #441
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    umm.. ethics = moral philosophy.
    The point being that you first said it can't be proven and then you said it could. In which case were you wrong?


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    I know that's not the best you can do.....
    You are correct sir, I tend to respond to arguments with arguments or agreement. Some people wrote a book about it is not an argument. At best, its an appeal to authority. You could have at least bothered to try and cut and paste something...
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 09:14 PM.

  2. #442
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    The point being that you first said it can't be proven and then you said it could. In which case were you wrong?
    no, i didn't say it can be proven... I said it's been verified as sound.... there is a subtle distinction there.
    it exists in our society, and as such, it's implementation has been verified to be sound.... now, if it really is false, and we are living a lie, as it were... the lie is still verified as sound.
    sounds a lil goofy, but that's the best i can do on a moments notice



    You are correct sir, I tend to respond to arguments with arguments or agreement. Some people wrote a book about it is not an argument.
    if you see the concept as something that some dude wrote in a book, and that it... then you aren't interested in or prepared to debate the subject at all.

  3. #443
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    tacomancer's Avatar
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    no, i didn't say it can be proven... I said it's been verified as sound.... there is a subtle distinction there.
    it exists in our society, and as such, it's implementation has been verified to be sound.... now, if it really is false, and we are living a lie, as it were... the lie is still verified as sound.
    sounds a lil goofy, but that's the best i can do on a moments notice
    If thats your meaning, than Mach already brought it up and I addressed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post

    Yes, many cultures do consider this to be true...

    There are cultures that think cows are sacred and that the islands of Japan is made of divine cum ...

    Cultures have beliefs about all sorts of things that other cultures may consider crazy, I don't see that this matters in our discussion.
    However, I do agree on the fundamental point that as a society we should implement what is shown to be useful in promoting our wellbeing, prosperity, happiness, etc. This is an argument based on usefulness or consequentialism, not on whether something is logically true or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    if you see the concept as something that some dude wrote in a book, and that it... then you aren't interested in or prepared to debate the subject at all.
    I have been debating it all thread and in many other threads, the difference being that other people managed to present an argument.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 09:22 PM.

  4. #444
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    This reminds me of the mumbo-jumbo of most self help guru BS books, seminars, no money down own your own home dribble.

    It isn't deep, just quicksand for the gullible.

    Or a sophmoric debate after way too many over priced crapacinos.

  5. #445
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    This reminds me of the mumbo-jumbo of most self help guru BS books, seminars, no money down own your own home dribble.

    It isn't deep, just quicksand for the gullible.

    Or a sophmoric debate after way too many over priced crapacinos.
    So you have nothing to add to the conversation then?

  6. #446
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If thats your meaning, than Mach already brought it up and I addressed it.
    you addressed it by eqauting it to sacred cows and divine cum.... not exactly an apt comparison



    However, I do agree on the fundamental point that as a society we should implement what is shown to be useful in promoting our wellbeing, prosperity, happiness, etc. This is an argument based on usefulness or consequentialism, not on whether something is logically true or not.
    ahh yes, consequentialism .. or as we usually refer to it "the ends justify the means"




    I have been debating it all thread and in many other threads, the difference being that other people managed to present an argument.
    well tehn, i guess we are done.... if you call what you jsut did an argument, and what i've been doing as having no argument, there is no use in carrying on.... i'm not interested in opposite-land.

  7. #447
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    you addressed it by eqauting it to sacred cows and divine cum.... not exactly an apt comparison
    The point being that something being a part of a culture is not an argument as to whether something is true or not. It would be an argument as to whether people believe in it though. We have nearly a billion Muslims in the world, do you think that their view of things is true because it exists within a cultural context?

    appeal to popularity or whatever this fallacy is called

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    ahh yes, consequentialism .. or as we usually refer to it "the ends justify the means"
    I guess that's an aspect of how I view things, however if the means are something I find unacceptable than I don't worry about the ends either. Consequences matter greatly though as do the means. Far more than some notion of truth that may not have any practical use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    well tehn, i guess we are done.... if you call what you jsut did an argument, and what i've been doing as having no argument, there is no use in carrying on.... i'm not interested in opposite-land.
    I don't call my response an argument, there was nothing in your statement "some authors think this" for me to counter or agree with beyond whether this fact can be verified or not. That's fact checking not a discussion about the nature of the world. There is no logic there, no axioms, no real world examples, nothing.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 09:39 PM.

  8. #448
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Concise!

    Identify the premise Mosurveryor and it's trivial.

    1. Mach has beaten his wife.
    2. It has either stopped, or not.

    Your premise 1. is false. See how easy it is when you are reasonable? Thanks Mo, you debate efficiently.

    Which premise of mine was false? I pointed it out in one quick response, surely anyone can do the same instead of all the typing.
    So I take it you wanted that third option after all.

    Why don't you put forward your options as simply as I did?
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  9. #449
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I think the OP may have a point regardless though:
    Ownership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The OP is about owning yourself, not property. Wikipedia apparently makes the claim that most modern societies consider consider it true that individuals own themselves...
    Did you miss the "citation needed" note at the end??
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #450
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    So who precisely is making the claim that "nobody owns anybody, even themselves"? Come on Cephus, make the claim.
    But if no one is making the claim Cephus, there is no claim being made, it's no different than writing "nothing" on the topic, and being silent on the issue.

    That's quite a third option...silence. Good thing our constitution isn't just blank.
    I was pointing out the false dichotomy that people were using, that you had a choice between A and B and they presented an option B that most people didn't like. That doesn't make A true, especially when, as you point out, there are lots of other alternatives available.

    And yes, I'll take that option, nobody is owned by anybody including themselves.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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