View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

Voters
50. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
Page 44 of 65 FirstFirst ... 34424344454654 ... LastLast
Results 431 to 440 of 645

Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #431
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 01:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    it's one thing to say it's false, it's quite another to provide a compelling argument as to why it's false ( I'd say proof, but we are talking about an matter of ethics here, and proving ethical concepts right or wrong is difficult)

    as a matter of practicality, property.. as applied to humans.. is true.
    one need only to acknowledge the existence of slavery to see that it is true... Humans can be, and are, property( at least partially)... that is indisputable.

    self-ownership is, primarily, a matter of ethics...it is an ethical standard in which we have based our government, our economy,our laws, our policies and regulations, and our culture on.... sorry, but it's not false concept.
    I have addressed slavery already

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Property is something that is acted on, land and stuff fit into that category. These objects have no will of their own and thus are subject to being property or whatever we want to define them as basically. We just settle on property because that's how people tend to think. A person is a subject, not an object and something with will. Also one cannot really separate one's body from one's will, because they the same thing (namely the brain). Because of this, the concept of property does not really apply. This is why the idea of ownership over a person presents a false distinction, because falsely categorizes what people are.

    Slavery happens and slavery is tragic, but keep in mind, its only tragic to people with an ounce of morality and many people do not have any sort of morality and do not see slavery as tragic. Morality is a common feature of humanity though as its its inbuilt by evolution to enable social behavior which increases our chances of survival. Because of this, we like to think of ourselves and our will as sacred due to this inbuilt desire, but objectively, it is not true. However, social instincts are the source of our rejection of slavery, but people should not confuse their emotional rejection of these kinds of things with any sort of valid philosophy. Many libertarians do though and base their arguments on this sort of emotional appeal. Look beyond the emotion into what is true.

    There is some grey area in how I see things, like brain dead people, animals, advanced AI (if it ever happens) but maybe I will work through those questions or maybe not. Its an admitted flaw in my viewpoint though.
    Ethics very from people to people, its a terrible thing to base an argument on since its only a matter of opinion and not something that can be proven or disproven.

    So yes, you like the idea of self ownership, but ultimately this means very little in terms of whether the concept can be verified as sound.

    I am glad you like your opinion though
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 07:21 PM.

  2. #432
    Elitist as Hell.
    Einzige's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Last Seen
    10-29-16 @ 01:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    2,655

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ethics very from people to people, its a terrible thing to base an argument on since its only a matter of opinion and not something that can be proven or disproven.

    So yes, you like the idea of self ownership, but ultimately this means very little in terms of whether the concept can be verified as sound.
    You've just hit on a fundamental problem for 'objectivist libertarian' arguments for freedom (which I consider inclusive of, but not limited to, capital-O Objectivism). It is a philosophy that holds one is condemned to be free; you cannot choose not to be free - in which case, you are not free at all.

    Self-ownership and freedom are, and have to be, located in the subjective realm of individual experience.

  3. #433
    Sage

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Texas, Vegas, Colombia
    Last Seen
    11-28-16 @ 05:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,295

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    If it's an 'ethical standard', or based in 'objective morality', as Randians are wont to pose it, then it's a self-defeating, nihilating premise: if I own myself, then I am free to dispose of myself - and my ownership over myself - as I wish; I do not have to own myself.
    not, it's not self defeating
    an extreme 'disposal" of ownership/autonomy/sovereignty is... suicide.
    a less extreme, and far more common example, is... contract.

    the concept predates Rand by hundreds of years... it makes no sense to bring her up.
    now, if you want to bring up modern philosophers/prominent thinkers etc... that's where we get into the liberal/libertarian argument for the concept being axiomatic... but as i have said, the concept is not new.. it's not a libertarian-born concept... it's an enlightenment thing, a liberal thing.

  4. #434
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 01:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    You've just hit on a fundamental problem for 'objectivist libertarian' arguments for freedom (which I consider inclusive of, but not limited to, capital-O Objectivism). It is a philosophy that holds one is condemned to be free; you cannot choose not to be free - in which case, you are not free at all.

    Self-ownership and freedom are, and have to be, located in the subjective realm of individual experience.
    Human will can be subverted very easily though by manipulation or other means. What's interesting is that even while it is being manipulated, the person can still maintain that they are free, and they might very well be, because even though they are being manipulated they are still making choices which they believe are optimal. Its a very complicated problem.

    So you are probably right, I need to think on this.

  5. #435
    Elitist as Hell.
    Einzige's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Last Seen
    10-29-16 @ 01:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    2,655

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    not, it's not self defeating
    an extreme 'disposal" of ownership/autonomy/sovereignty is... suicide.
    a less extreme, and far more common example, is... contract.
    Self-sovereignty means self-sovereignty: it does not mean "limited self-ownership under which I recognize a higher, more abstract authority". I am either free or I am not, after all; and I am free when I recognize that my freedom emanates from within myself, and is a product of myself, and is not inherent to reality.

    Again I reference Max Stirner, and anyone who hasn't read his The Ego and Its Own and is interested in the subject really ought to.

    I am owner of my might, and I am so when I know myself as unique. In the unique one the owner himself returns into his creative nothing, of which he is born. Every higher essence above me, be it God, be it man, weakens the feeling of my uniqueness and pales only before the sun of this consciousness. If I concern myself for myself, the unique one, then my concern rests on its transitory, mortal creator, who consumes himself, and I may say: all things are nothing to me.
    the concept predates Rand by hundreds of years... it makes no sense to bring her up.
    Rand sought to create an objective framework for that Enlightenment-rationalist philosophy. She tried to codify it.
    Last edited by Einzige; 06-21-12 at 07:31 PM.

  6. #436
    Sage
    Moot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:50 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    29,205

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    No they don't - and they certainly don't have (recognized) exclusive rights to it's use or the government couldn't outlaw prostitution.
    The SCOTUS ruled women have recognized rights up until viability of the fetus. Interesting that you would compare prostitution to having an abortion. Unless I'm mistaken women don't sell their aborted fetuses as a commodity or to create value. Some women do however use their bodies as a commodity (prostitution) and as such it has value as long as someone is willing to pay for it. The government has chosen not to protect that right but it doesn't mean that women don't use their bodies as property that can be sold with or without their consent.

    As I understand it, that does not undermine the SCOTUS position on abortion, though, since I believe that's based on privacy, not property?
    Well what it is the protected right to privacy if not the reasonable expection without government interference to have privacy in one's home (property) and health information (property) and identity (property)?

    If no one can own a person then there is still no conflict.
    You can own yourself. The conflict as I see it is the emotional objection to being considered property and yet that is exactly what the government considers a "person". The government and insurance companies even go further to give a "person" value according to his/her most productive years in the labor force as if they were a commodity. Employers consider the employee a commodity that can be bought to help add value to a product.
    Last edited by Moot; 06-21-12 at 07:30 PM.

  7. #437
    Sage

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Texas, Vegas, Colombia
    Last Seen
    11-28-16 @ 05:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,295

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I have addressed slavery already



    Ethics very from people to people, its a terrible thing to base an argument on since its only a matter of opinion and not something that can be proven or disproven.

    So yes, you like the idea of self ownership, but ultimately this means very little in terms of whether the concept can be verified as sound.

    I am glad you like your opinion though
    it's already been verified as sound... as I said, there is really nothing in our society that is not based on this concept of property.

    i've read a few critiques on the concept from other philosophers ( Cohen,Van Parijs,Gorr,Ingram.. and even an unknown UCLA professor whose name escapes me).. all acknowledge the self ownership or "property in the person" is part and parcel of our shared moral consciousness.. and not only ours, it's simply the foremost virtue of liberal democracies wherever they exist ( it is, after all, a fundamental liberal concept)..all acknowledge that there is , at least, a " close association" with self ownership and individual rights... even the philosophers who offer critiques ( which are generally little more than " there oughta be a different way to look a things, this feels icky.. and libertarians suck") aren't opposed to anything i've said thus far.

  8. #438
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 01:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    it's already been verified as sound...as I said, there is really nothing in our society that is not based on this concept of property.
    you yourself said it was an ethical, not a philosophical argument. You are now contradicting yourself. If it can't be proven, it can't be held as sound.

    it's one thing to say it's false, it's quite another to provide a compelling argument as to why it's false ( I'd say proof, but we are talking about an matter of ethics here, and proving ethical concepts right or wrong is difficult)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    i've read a few critiques on the concept from other philosophers ( Cohen,Van Parijs,Gorr,Ingram.. and even an unknown UCLA professor whose name escapes me).. all acknowledge the self ownership or "property in the person" is part and parcel of our shared moral consciousness.. and not only ours, it's simply the foremost virtue of liberal democracies wherever they exist ( it is, after all, a fundamental liberal concept)..all acknowledge that there is , at least, a " close association" with self ownership and individual rights... even the philosophers who offer critiques ( which are generally little more than " there oughta be a different way to look a things, this feels icky.. and libertarians suck") aren't opposed to anything i've said thus far.
    Ok, so someone who wrote a book said it, it must be true!
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 07:52 PM.

  9. #439
    Sage

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Texas, Vegas, Colombia
    Last Seen
    11-28-16 @ 05:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,295

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    Self-sovereignty means self-sovereignty: it does not mean "limited self-ownership under which I recognize a higher, more abstract authority". I am either free or I am not, after all; and I am free when I recognize that my freedom emanates from within myself, and is a product of myself, and is not inherent to reality.
    umm.. i'm confused... how did you get any of that from what i posted?
    Again I reference Max Stirner, and anyone who hasn't read his The Ego and Its Own and is interested in the subject really ought to.
    cool, i'll check it out.




    Rand sought to create an objective framework for that Enlightenment-rationalist philosophy. She tried to codify it.
    that's all well and good... unfortunately, the concept was codified long before she was a gleam in her daddy's eyes.

  10. #440
    Sage

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Texas, Vegas, Colombia
    Last Seen
    11-28-16 @ 05:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,295

    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    you yourself said it was an ethical, not a philosophical argument. You are now contradicting yourself. If it can't be proven, it can't be held as sound.
    umm.. ethics = moral philosophy.




    Ok, so someone who wrote a book said it, it must be true!
    I know that's not the best you can do.....

Page 44 of 65 FirstFirst ... 34424344454654 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •