View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #421
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    A: You have stopped beating your wife.
    not-A: You have not stopped beating your wife. Which is it??? (And if you're not married feel free to substitute girlfriend, mother, sister, or whoever.)
    Or would you like a "third option"?
    Concise!

    Identify the premise Mosurveryor and it's trivial.

    1. Mach has beaten his wife.
    2. It has either stopped, or not.

    Your premise 1. is false. See how easy it is when you are reasonable? Thanks Mo, you debate efficiently.

    Which premise of mine was false? I pointed it out in one quick response, surely anyone can do the same instead of all the typing.
    Last edited by Mach; 06-21-12 at 07:39 PM.

  2. #422
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    The premise that property applies to humans is false.

    This has been pointed out repeatedly.

  3. #423
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    So people have influence in a particular discipline have some say over our lives. I fail to see why this is relevant.
    You fail to see why someone else having a say in your life is relevant? I assume if you don't qualify that, it's absurd.

    With no objective criteria in which to judge, good philosophy from bad is a matter of opinion. This is one of the problems of philosophy.
    You're making a contradiction though.
    You claim science is good, the best even. That philosophy is a matter of opinion and you can't judge good philosophy from bad. Yet according to that quote, science relies on accepting some philosophical assumptions!. Your skepticism is logically inconsistent with the premise that science uses these underlying, philosophical assumptions:
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceWiki
    (1) that there is an objective reality shared by all rational observers;
    (2) that this objective reality is governed by natural laws;
    (3) that these laws can be discovered by means of systematic observation and experimentation.
    In other words, if you can't tell good philsophy from bad, and science relies on philosophy, you can't tell good science from bad. You want to sink with that ship? No need, there are plenty of life boats.
    Last edited by Mach; 06-21-12 at 07:47 PM.

  4. #424
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Self-ownership is axiomatic: I must own myself before I can own anything else (there must be an owner for something to be owned). If I don't own myself, but rather exist in some sort of nebulous state without belonging, it means that nothing else can belong to me, either - there is a causal relationship between the two.

    This is very different from a vulgar, Randian concept of self-ownership, though, which reifies ownership above the owner. Stirner makes a fine case for this distinction:

    But my property is not a thing, since this has an existence independent of me; only my might is my own. Not this tree, but my might or control over it, is what is mine.

    Now, how is this might perversely expressed? They say I have a right to this tree, or it is my rightful property. So I have earned it by might. That the might must last in order that the tree may also be held - or better, that the might is not a thing existing of itself, but has existence solely in the mighty ego, in me the mighty - is forgotten. Might, like other of my qualities (humanity, majesty, etc.) , is exalted to something existing of itself, so that it still exists long after it has ceased to be my might. Thus transformed into a ghost, might is - right.
    In answer to the poll: yes, and my self-ownership is absolute.
    Last edited by Einzige; 06-21-12 at 07:54 PM.

  5. #425
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    You fail to see why someone else having a say in your life is relevant? I assume if you don't qualify that, it's absurd.
    This is an example of influence, not ownership.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    You're making a contradiction though.
    You claim science is good, the best even. That philosophy is a matter of opinion and you can't judge good philosophy from bad. Yet according to that quote, science relies on accepting some philosophical assumptions!. Your skepticism is logically inconsistent with the premise that science uses these underlying, philosophical assumptions:
    So far, this assumptions have been verified through physical experimentation or observation and have been held up However, you are correct that they can be falsified at any point though as we gain more information about the world we find ourselves in, so these assumptions are being held up by more than just logic. This would be an example of an objective criteria in which to judge something by. How does one similarly verify the results of a chain of logic in philosophy? Using logic once can conclude just about anything given the right starting point and with human fallibility we cannot take it on faith that some assumption (whether or not we call it self evident) is a good foundational axiom without that external verification.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 07:59 PM.

  6. #426
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    The premise that property applies to humans is false.
    This has been pointed out repeatedly.
    The very first reply addressed that though.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1060613472

    I think the OP may have a point regardless though:
    Ownership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The living human body is, in most modern societies, considered something which cannot be the property of anyone but the person whose body it is.
    The OP is about owning yourself, not property. Wikipedia apparently makes the claim that most modern societies consider consider it true that individuals own themselves...
    Last edited by Mach; 06-21-12 at 08:00 PM.

  7. #427
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    The very first reply addressed that though.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1060613472
    Do you have a post number? Your link just goes to the top of this page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I think the OP may have a point regardless though:
    Ownership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The OP is about owning yourself, not property. Wikipedia apparently makes the claim that most modern societies consider consider it true that individuals own themselves...
    Yes, many cultures do consider this to be true...

    There are cultures that think cows are sacred and that the islands of Japan is made of divine cum ...

    Cultures have beliefs about all sorts of things that other cultures may consider crazy, I don't see that this matters in our discussion.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 08:04 PM.

  8. #428
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    The OP is about owning yourself, not property. Wikipedia apparently makes the claim that most modern societies consider consider it true that individuals own themselves...
    It's possible for modern society to be right and wrong on the subject at the same time. 'Modern society' endorses what basically amounts to a limited, halting form of self-ownership, held to out of a metaphysical concern for the individual's soul. It's pretty far removed from what I think of when I consider the phrase 'self-ownership'.

  9. #429
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    The premise that property applies to humans is false.

    This has been pointed out repeatedly.
    it's one thing to say it's false, it's quite another to provide a compelling argument as to why it's false ( I'd say proof, but we are talking about an matter of ethics here, and proving ethical concepts right or wrong is difficult)

    as a matter of practicality, property.. as applied to humans.. is true.
    one need only to acknowledge the existence of slavery to see that it is true... Humans can be, and are, property( at least partially)... that is indisputable.

    self-ownership is, primarily, a matter of ethics...it is an ethical standard in which we have based our government, our economy,our laws, our policies and regulations, and our culture on.... sorry, but it's not false concept.

  10. #430
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    self-ownership is, primarily, a matter of ethics...it is an ethical standard in which we have based our government, our economy,our laws, our policies and regulations, and our culture on.... sorry, but it's not false concept.
    If it's an 'ethical standard', or based in 'objective morality', as Randians are wont to pose it, then it's a self-defeating, nihilating premise: if I own myself, then I am free to dispose of myself - and my ownership over myself - as I wish; I do not have to own myself.

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