View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #411
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I already pointed out what I thought were false assumptions, your choices relied on those assumptions, so I did not see a valid choice.
    Logic is a false choice? A, not-A. You still want the third option even though by definition that covers all choices. I see we'll be stopping there.

    Ultimately, these are questions we need to start giving over to science rather than philosophy, so we can actually gain some understanding of humanity which is progressing much faster due to things like MRI than it ever did due to some philosopher dreaming up some speculation of one sort or another.
    Science also relies on logic. The consistent negative emotional appeals (dreaming up, speculation a fad.) are not swaying me.

    The next time an MRI lobbies for pension and tenure using my tax dollars, I suppose I'll start to come around. I work in technology by the way, and part of that is high reliability products, which are involved in a wide variety of medical devices. Like democrats always say politically, we can do both.

  2. #412
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Logic is a false choice? A, not-A. You still want the third option even though by definition that covers all choices. I see we'll be stopping there.
    Logic is fine, so long as the supporting assumptions are valid. Its like a building, if the foundations are bad, don't go in. The simple fact is that I disagree with the theoretical model presented which leads to the whole discussion of ownership. I have explained why I do not support your axioms. Notice I also used logic, iso ts not something that your argument containts a monopoly of, so get off your high horse about logic because you do not have the arguments to justify you being up there.

    If you want to complain about logic, use it yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Science also relies on logic. The consistent negative emotional appeals (dreaming up, speculation a fad.) are not swaying me.

    The next time an MRI lobbies for pension and tenure using my tax dollars, I suppose I'll start to come around. I work in technology by the way, and part of that is high reliability products, which are involved in a wide variety of medical devices. Like democrats always say politically, we can do both.
    I agree, science relies on logic, but its not philosophy and uses, imho, better starter material than logical proofs, by way of using real world examples and experimentation which is far more reliable. The negative emotional appeals are simply the result of my opinion about the validity of using logical proofs without anything real to point to in order to validate those truths and not meant to sway anyone. But yes I agree, we can do both, however when they give conflicting information, such as what I pointed out in my previous post, my preference is for science.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 06:03 PM.

  3. #413
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    This arguement of self ownership goes hand in hand with the basic tenets of Pro-choice in that women have exclusive and sole ownership of their own bodies. So I find it rather hypocritical of some of the Pro-choicers on this thread to argue against this basic unalienable right of women. So Pro-Choicers, do women or do they not own their vaginas? Yes or no?
    No they don't - and they certainly don't have (recognized) exclusive rights to it's use or the government couldn't outlaw prostitution.

    As I understand it, that does not undermine the SCOTUS position on abortion, though, since I believe that's based on privacy, not property?


    If no one can own a person then there is still no conflict.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-21-12 at 06:06 PM.
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  4. #414
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    This is a very good point and highlights one of the problems of taking any philosophy absolutely. There is bound to be conflict since the real world is always messy.
    I think it's a good point too, but I think it's because she highlighted a logical contradiction (or potential one depending on their response). And if they were interested in being logically consistent, and/or correct, they would try to resolve it.

    At least, that's what you do every day at work when you solve problems (I assume!). Why do you rely on it when it counts, but then refuse it when you have the liesure to? How does emotional persuasion work on solving computer issues...can you belittle the code into behaving? If so, that's actually pretty cool.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Logic is a false choice? A, not-A. You still want the third option even though by definition that covers all choices. I see we'll be stopping there.
    A: You have stopped beating your wife.
    not-A: You have not stopped beating your wife.

    Which is it???
    (And if you're not married feel free to substitute girlfriend, mother, sister, or whoever.)

    Or would you like a "third option"?
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-21-12 at 06:15 PM.
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I think it's a good point too, but I think it's because she highlighted a logical contradiction (or potential one depending on their response). And if they were interested in being logically consistent, and/or correct, they would try to resolve it.

    At least, that's what you do every day at work when you solve problems (I assume!). Why do you rely on it when it counts, but then refuse it when you have the liesure to? How does emotional persuasion work on solving computer issues...can you belittle the code into behaving? If so, that's actually pretty cool.
    Just because I reject philosophy for what I view as a superior method of gathering information about the world doesn't mean I reject logic...

    Philosophy is simply one use for this method of thinking. There are better uses...

    Once you realize there is more than one way to use logic, you will understand I guess.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 06:12 PM.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Though communism failed miserably in the colonies.
    YOu do realise that the pilgrams that supposedly followed communism were actually chartered by the london company, they were a subsidiary of a for profit corporation ... hardly "communist."

    You want to see a good example see anarchist catelonia.

  8. #418
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    I hope the farmer takes the earlier-you's advice and defends his property from the later-you.
    There is a difference between "the community" which are directly effected by the economic rights that the community themself give, and an group of vandals.

    Also if a single farmer can defend an area, chances are that area isn't that important, its more like a possession, thats not the same as actual property.

    Nothing wrong with capitalism, its only when government is strong enough to meddle in the free market that you start to find todays crony capitalism/corporatism.
    Corporatism is the natural outcome of capitalism, of coarse capitalists will start manipulating civil law.

  9. #419
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Logic is fine, so long as the supporting assumptions are valid.
    I just don't see that you pointed out precisely which supporting argument was wrong, and why.

    I agree, science relies on logic, but its not philosophy and uses, imho, better starter material than logical proofs, by way of using real world examples and experimentation which is far more reliable.
    They were originally interchangeable concepts, doh.
    I agree that "all" of philsophy is a joke - as a whole. But that's only because as you note, it's harder to falsify than hard sciences. Economics is hard to falsify, yet parts of your life are shaped by career economists who have authority over certain aspects of your life. Surely you can see how them being right, or wrong, is important..in reality...to you.

    The kicker, here is Science form wikipedia:
    Working scientists usually take for granted a set of basic assumptions that are needed to justify a scientific method: (1) that there is an objective reality shared by all rational observers; (2) that this objective reality is governed by natural laws; (3) that these laws can be discovered by means of systematic observation and experimentation.
    That's more than just "logic" that it relies on. Underlying assumptions, there it is again.

    The negative emotional appeals are simply the result of my opinion about the validity of using logical proofs without anything real to point to in order to validate those truths and not meant to sway anyone. But yes I agree, we can do both, however when they give conflicting information, such as what I pointed out in my previous post, my preference is for science.
    Christians try to use logic for apologetics...I know it can be annoying when it's misused. You can differentiate between apologetics use of logic and science though, surely you can differentiate good philosophy from bad, just as you must admit we regularly differentiate good science from bad.

  10. #420
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I just don't see that you pointed out precisely which supporting argument was wrong, and why.
    Please review my post about how property doesn't apply to humans because humans are actors, not objects. You may not agree, but pretending it doesn't exist doesn't do your argument justice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    They were originally interchangeable concepts, doh.
    I agree that "all" of philsophy is a joke - as a whole. But that's only because as you note, it's harder to falsify than hard sciences. Economics is hard to falsify, yet parts of your life are shaped by career economists who have authority over certain aspects of your life. Surely you can see how them being right, or wrong, is important..in reality...to you.
    So people have influence in a particular discipline have some say over our lives. I fail to see why this is relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    The kicker, here is Science form wikipedia:

    That's more than just "logic" that it relies on. Underlying assumptions, there it is again.

    Christians try to use logic for apologetics...I know it can be annoying when it's misused. You can differentiate between apologetics use of logic and science though, surely you can differentiate good philosophy from bad, just as you must admit we regularly differentiate good science from bad.
    With no objective criteria in which to judge, good philosophy from bad is a matter of opinion. This is one of the problems of philosophy.

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