View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #401
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    So who precisely is making the claim that "nobody owns anybody, even themselves"? Come on Cephus, make the claim.
    But if no one is making the claim Cephus, there is no claim being made, it's no different than writing "nothing" on the topic, and being silent on the issue.

    That's quite a third option...silence. Good thing our constitution isn't just blank.
    Property is something that is acted on, land and stuff fit into that category. These objects have no will of their own and thus are subject to being property or whatever we want to define them as basically. We just settle on property because that's how people tend to think. A person is a subject, not an object and something with will. Also one cannot really separate one's body from one's will, because they the same thing (namely the brain). Because of this, the concept of property does not really apply. This is why the idea of ownership over a person presents a false distinction, because falsely categorizes what people are.

    Slavery happens and slavery is tragic, but keep in mind, its only tragic to people with an ounce of morality and many people do not have any sort of morality and do not see slavery as tragic. Morality is a common feature of humanity though as its its inbuilt by evolution to enable social behavior which increases our chances of survival. Because of this, we like to think of ourselves and our will as sacred due to this inbuilt desire, but objectively, it is not true. However, social instincts are the source of our rejection of slavery, but people should not confuse their emotional rejection of these kinds of things with any sort of valid philosophy. Many libertarians do though and base their arguments on this sort of emotional appeal. Look beyond the emotion into what is true.

    There is some grey area in how I see things, like brain dead people, animals, advanced AI (if it ever happens) but maybe I will work through those questions or maybe not. Its an admitted flaw in my viewpoint though.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 04:20 PM.

  2. #402
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Property is something that is acted on.
    Different argument. Ownership has been jawed about semantically for various reasons in this thread.
    Either we're talking about individual freedom, natural rights types of "I own the choice", or we're talking about a law that states that "I can own myself".
    If the former, you aren't refuting it.
    If the latter, there is no need for debate, it's moot, irrelevant, silly, etc. (i.e. I agree) I assumed the "own yourself" was done to be provocative, not literal.

  3. #403
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Different argument. Ownership has been jawed about semantically for various reasons in this thread.
    Either we're talking about individual freedom, natural rights types of "I own the choice", or we're talking about a law that states that "I can own myself".
    If the former, you aren't refuting it.
    If the latter, there is no need for debate, it's moot, irrelevant, silly, etc. (i.e. I agree) I assumed the "own yourself" was done to be provocative, not literal.
    I didn't bother to read the rest of the thread so I am not going to base my arguments on those posts. If you wish to address my viewpoint, please do so.

  4. #404
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I didn't bother to read the rest of the thread so I am not going to base my arguments on those posts. If you wish to address my viewpoint, please do so.
    Sure. I think the underlying assumption in many of our reasonable laws, rights, moral outlooks, phiosophical ethical frameworks, etc., all have as an underlying premise some form of this "self-ownership". Because it seems so obvious, we don't always recognize it.

    What do property rights give you? The right to choose what happens with that property.
    The same question can in that sense, apply to you. Who has the right to choose what happens with you, i.e. what choices you get to make, where you get to work, how long you work, whether you live or die.

    The problem with your argument here:
    Also one cannot really separate one's body from one's will, because they the same thing (namely the brain). Because of this, the concept of property does not really apply.
    Is that you are, as far as I can tell, claiming that you should not be able to choose what happens with your body, yourself.
    Notice that both of these alternatives:
    a. someone else gets to choose what happens wtih you (including the person claiming this)
    b. no one gets to choose what happnes with you (except the person claiming this of course!)
    ...Both fall logically on the side of "you should NOT be able to choose what happens with your body".

    While you may agree that a) is wrong, but suggest b) instead, it's contradictory. Whoever is declaring b) to be the law of the land, just assumed control, made the choice for you...even if that choice is to give you a long leash.

    The baseline has to be that you should own yourself. Sure there are emergency and boundary issues that will challenge that, that's fine. We do a fairly good job of detailing those in laws, with jury's, etc. That's why in the U.S. we are normally free to leave, and renounce our citizenship. Thankfully our legal system in that respect is consistent with this view of self-choice.
    Last edited by Mach; 06-21-12 at 04:28 PM.

  5. #405
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Sure. I think the underlying assumption in many of our reasonable laws, rights, moral outlooks, phiosophical ethical frameworks, etc., all have as an underlying premise some form of this "self-ownership". Because it seems so obvious, we don't always recognize it.

    What do property rights give you? The right to choose what happens with that property.
    The same question can in that sense, apply to you. Who has the right to choose what happens with you, i.e. what choices you get to make, where you get to work, how long you work, whether you live or die.
    And these things are desirable because it is natural for humans to want to do things which makes them feel good. In general, I see ways to promote prosperity, happiness, well being, etc, so there is plenty of reason to support them on a valid basis without having to resort to natural law. People are going to want these things. I don't see whether some legal fad as being really important in terms of actual fact.

    I think you are right that the tie ins from this philosophy to human psychology are important, but that is as far as I think we should go with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    The problem with your argument here:

    Is that you are, as far as I can tell, claiming that you should not be able to choose what happens with your body, yourself.
    Notice that both of these alternatives:
    a. someone else gets to choose what happens wtih you (including the person claiming this)
    b. no one gets to choose what happnes with you (except the person claiming this of course!)
    ...Both fall logically on the side of "you should NOT be able to choose what happens with your body".

    The baseline has to be that you should own yourself. Sure there are emergency and boundary issues that will challenge that, that's fine. We do a fairly good job of detailing those in laws, with jury's, etc.
    People will seek to choose what happens to themselves whether they should or not, its what people do and its tied heavily into how we are programmed to see the world. The should is really not that important, it is. Its the same sort of thing like a person's mind and body, it is. There is no need for distinction here.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 04:31 PM.

  6. #406
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I agree the energy my body came from is part of the universe. Most scientific absolutists will assert that my body is all that I am and yet since my bodies energy is part of the universe, maybe I'm more than I know?
    Nah. The materials your body is composed of came from the universe. No reason to give yourself more significance than that.
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  7. #407
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    People will seek to choose what happens to themselves whether they should or not, its what people do and its tied heavily into how we are programmed to see the world. The should is really not that important, it is. Its the same sort of thing like a person's mind and body, it is. There is no need for distinction here.
    You really didn't take one of the logically presented choices. Why not?

    And let's be clear that my seeking to prevent you from taking, for example, my children, just because you want some new farm-hands, ensures that:

    1. There is a should with regards to that choice
    2. That the should is important
    3. That there is a distinction with regards to who should get to make that choice, and that a choice should be made

    I do agree that we can be entirely silent on this, and all issues, entirely zen. We are all in a sense, appendages of the same universe, we think we are unique and different but we're all still cosmically, literally, part of the same universal existence that "is". I think there are important lessons to learn from that, and that underneath it all this is the foundation from which we bicker and squabble, live and die. Great. But the second we choose to remark about something, rather than simply "being", you get right back to logic, reason, natural rights, etc., whether you want to or not, they are self-evident (once we go down the path of discussing...anything).

  8. #408
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    You really didn't take one of the logically presented choices. Why not?
    I already pointed out what I thought were false assumptions, your choices relied on those assumptions, so I did not see a valid choice. Hell pointing out this false dichotomy is why I got back into this thread today. Unless you can actually refute my points, there is no use in simply asserting it over and over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    And let's be clear that my seeking to prevent you from taking, for example, my children, just because you want some new farm-hands, ensures that:

    1. There is a should with regards to that choice
    2. That the should is important
    3. That there is a distinction with regards to who should get to make that choice, and that a choice should be made

    I do agree that we can be entirely silent on this, and all issues, entirely zen. We are all in a sense, appendages of the same universe, we think we are unique and different but we're all still cosmically, literally, part of the same universal existence that "is". I think there are important lessons to learn from that, and that underneath it all this is the foundation from which we bicker and squabble, live and die. Great. But the second we choose to remark about something, rather than simply "being", you get right back to logic, reason, natural rights, etc., whether you want to or not, they are self-evident (once we go down the path of discussing...anything).
    And all of those things are a veneer on top of what is really going on and what humans actually are. We engage in these philosophical for certain reasons, they make us feel good, they provide us with some benefit, we convince ourselves that they are true, other. In general, people who are proponents of a particular philosophy see the benefits of that philosophy to be something they desire for whatever reason. I say dispense with that artificial constraint and just go for what we collectively seek. Lots go with the salad bar model and take the things we like, dispense with what we don't and not worry too much about logical consistency, because people are not logically consistent and people will never fit well within a logical model. ANY model, even one that generally seeks to promote freedom (at least one of the many definitions of freedom) will always impose on people for that reason, humans and logic do not always mix well. This is why we need moderation in any philosophy to account for what really goes on. This is also why any rigorous study of any social theory gets very complicated after enough scholarship.

    Some things are known:
    1. People generally desire peace and to do what they want to do.
    2. People generally desire safety, comfort, and some sense of knowing whats going on and power over their environment.
    3. People generally desire the company of other people and relationships have great power over our behavior.
    4. A LOT of human wants tend to conflict with one another since we have some constraints we have to prioritize. However priorities also depend on the situation.
    Probably other stuff, but my kids are quite loud right now so its hard to concentrate.

    Lets look at what promotes those things and not worry about some overarching theory that is going to be flawed in one way or another.

    Ultimately, these are questions we need to start giving over to science rather than philosophy, so we can actually gain some understanding of humanity which is progressing much faster due to things like MRI than it ever did due to some philosopher dreaming up some speculation of one sort or another.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 05:16 PM.

  9. #409
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    This arguement of self ownership goes hand in hand with the basic tenets of Pro-choice in that women have exclusive and sole ownership of their own bodies. So I find it rather hypocritical of some of the Pro-choicers on this thread to argue against this basic unalienable right of women. So Pro-Choicers, do women or do they not own their vaginas? Yes or no?

  10. #410
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    This arguement of self ownership goes hand in hand with the basic tenets of Pro-choice in that women have exclusive and sole ownership of their own bodies. So I find it rather hypocritical of some of the Pro-choicers on this thread to argue against this basic unalienable right of women. So Pro-Choicers, do women or do they not own their vaginas? Yes or no?
    This is a very good point and highlights one of the problems of taking any philosophy absolutely. There is bound to be conflict since the real world is always messy.

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