View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #391
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    I dont have a problem with communism in theory, its just when it comes into practice that i dont like it. If everyone voluntarily went into this system, i believe it could work, well maybe. Though communism failed miserably in the colonies.

  2. #392
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    I dont have a problem with communism in theory, its just when it comes into practice that i dont like it. If everyone voluntarily went into this system, i believe it could work, well maybe. Though communism failed miserably in the colonies.
    Sounds like anarchism or minarchism. Its a system that requires perfect theoretical people.

  3. #393
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Sounds like anarchism or minarchism. Its a system that requires perfect theoretical people.
    It really doesn't require perfect theoretical people, merely a willingness to let people suffer the consequences of their own stupidity, or enjoy the successes of making intelligently sound decisions.
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  4. #394
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It really doesn't require perfect theoretical people, merely a willingness to let people suffer the consequences of their own stupidity, or enjoy the successes of making intelligently sound decisions.
    This assumes that good decisions tend to have good consequences and bad decisions have bad ones with no luck or random chance or the influence of other people in the system. This is not reality of course. There are times when objectively bad decisions yield good consequences and the alternative. Often what we refer to as good or bad decisions are probabilities at best, which in many ways invalidates the who theory behind good decisions yielding good consequences, because karma cannot be controlled or relied on.

    For example, while my life is pretty good, I have a friend who is a good dad, works hard at his job, and generally makes very good decisions, only to get laid off (right after getting promoted, wtf), get in a car wreck with an old dude who didn't have insurance, (old dude's fault) and other acts of god. Karma doesn't work well enough that it should be relied on as any sort of policy matter. I know a few people who ****heads in general yet good things happen to them. The world isn't some machine that gives you what you give it. To think so is naive.

    Also, the second point is that people generally are not prepared to do what you suggest because thats not human nature. Human nature is somewhat monkey like in many respects. Given the chance, the average person will lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want (based on some studies I have read). Basing policy on the hope of maturity will never work. Policy should be based on what works more so than any sort of ideal like you are espousing.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-21-12 at 02:04 PM.

  5. #395
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    Lying? In what way.
    Because you kept invoking a protection requirement that was not present in the original post and then saying the systems offered didn't meet the original standard because there was no means of protection. You did this more than once even after I pointed out that protection wasn't part of the original post.

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    Their property, private property, that under the system you linked does not advocate.
    The original post only referred to not harming property it did not state that a system of property was required nor was it forthcoming about what kind of property, if any, it might be referring. Those with a "property mentality" often refer to personal possessions, which are present in an anarchy/communist system, as "property" even though the system itself does not use the word "property" or it's basic ideal.


    At this point none of that matters since Centinel has been more forthcoming.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-21-12 at 03:25 PM.
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  6. #396
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    Zgoldsmith pretty much hit it right on the button. Anyway, what do bugs have to do with ownership of ones own body? It just means that no one can take my property from me due to property rights, if my body is indeed my property, then ahhh no one can take me as a slave. Also you should not be telling me how to use my property, which is not the case any longer in the good ole U S of A...
    People are making a false dichotomy here, that if you don't own yourself, then someone else has to own you. The bug example is proof of a third possibility, that nobody owns anyone, even themselves. That does away with the argument, which let's face it, was just trotted out as a means to define natural rights into existence.
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    The dirt my body came from owns me and is where my body is destined to return. All my life I have to satisfy the needs and wants of this body, so it owns me more than anything or anyone else. Is this body all that I am is yet another question but I am not its complete master making part of me feel separate.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  8. #398
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    People are making a false dichotomy here, that if you don't own yourself, then someone else has to own you. The bug example is proof of a third possibility, that nobody owns anyone, even themselves. That does away with the argument, which let's face it, was just trotted out as a means to define natural rights into existence.
    So who precisely is making the claim that "nobody owns anybody, even themselves"? Come on Cephus, make the claim.
    But if no one is making the claim Cephus, there is no claim being made, it's no different than writing "nothing" on the topic, and being silent on the issue.

    That's quite a third option...silence. Good thing our constitution isn't just blank.

  9. #399
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    The dirt my body came from owns me and is where my body is destined to return. All my life I have to satisfy the needs and wants of this body, so it owns me more than anything or anyone else. Is this body all that I am is yet another question but I am not its complete master making part of me feel separate.
    Your body's composed of element that were created at moment of origin in the Big Bang. So, going by your logic, you should return to the universe.
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Your body's composed of element that were created at moment of origin in the Big Bang. So, going by your logic, you should return to the universe.
    I agree the energy my body came from is part of the universe. Most scientific absolutists will assert that my body is all that I am and yet since my bodies energy is part of the universe, maybe I'm more than I know?
    Last edited by grip; 06-21-12 at 04:14 PM.
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