View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #351
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Not necessarily, private property implies exclusive access. If you have a worker directed factory, but its polluting the community, then the community should have a right to interveine, its not exclusive access.

    I'm not arguing against the idea of property perse, I'm arguing against the idea that property is fundemental.

  2. #352
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Not necessarily, private property implies exclusive access. If you have a worker directed factory, but its polluting the community, then the community should have a right to interveine, its not exclusive access.

    I'm not arguing against the idea of property perse, I'm arguing against the idea that property is fundemental.
    I believe we are in agreement. As I originally stated, nobody has the right to damage another's property. Polluting another's property would fall under that heading.

    Property rights are not absolute. Despite the fact that my car is my property, I may not use it to drive over your front lawn. I may own a gallon of gasoline, but I may not dump it into your pool.. We may act and use our property only in ways that do not physically damage the property of others.

    Remember, I advocate a social order in which each person's person and property is protected from damage by others. This includes damage by polluters.

  3. #353
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Polluting another's property would fall under that heading.
    The air is no ones property ...

    Also my point is property rights are not fundemental.

    Property rights are not absolute. Despite the fact that my car is my property, I may not use it to drive over your front lawn. I may own a gallon of gasoline, but I may not dump it into your pool.. We may act and use our property only in ways that do not physically damage the property of others.
    Thats not what I'm saying, lets say people's farms have been washed away due to a flood but one guys farm has been saved, I'd say the community has the right to that farm.

    I'm saying that property rights are not absolute and are secondary to social need, in other words property is a means to an end, not an end in itself, if something works better being in private property fine, if it doesn't then no.

    at that point I'd rather just get rid of the whole concept of private property, because what I'm talking about isn't that, in the way people think of it.

  4. #354
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    Some? Our presidential candidate is exactly what i just stated, socially liberal yet fiscally conservative. Just cause you want libertarians to fit your bill, does not make it so.

    Let me ask you this one question, if you dont mind, when was the idea of america actually created, freedom wise i say... Also when did this pick up traction around the world? And i geuss one more, when was the greatest growth in the united states?
    First - As I said - some libertarians are liberal on some social issues. Some. Many others are found on the right wing conservative side of social issues when it comes to things like almost anything to do with race.

    Second - America was created by the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It is our birth announcement. I guess it has been picking up traction ever since then.

    The greatest growth of what exactly?
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    What? It is commonplace for people to contribute. That is the essence of the division of labor and a civilized society. Unless one is a hermit living in a cave, each of us contributes something to those around us, and they in turn repay us by contributing to us.

    What libertarians oppose are those who refuse to contribute but simply take what they want and order others about. These people are the decivilizing force.
    You misunderstood - I was talking about taxes. When you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    The ethical principle is that it is wrong to take or destroy what other people own.
    were you not talking about taxes???

    I've seen almost those exact words before, many times, and it's always been about taxation. Are you saying it wasn't? Are you not including taxation in this statement? If not then I apologize - but I'm betting you are including taxes. It's a typical ploy of Libertarians.


    If you have no taxes then you have no government because you cannot run a viable government on (voluntary) donations alone.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-20-12 at 12:22 PM.
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  6. #356
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    We should shoot for a social order in which everyone is free to act in any way he wishes as long as he doesn't harm others or their property. This ensures the maximum freedom not just for some, but for all.
    Then you vote for anarchy/communism (small 'c')! That's good to know.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-20-12 at 12:27 PM.
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  7. #357
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Do you wish for a social order in which people may take your property?
    Taxes are required for everything except anarchy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    How would you ensure your survival in such a situation with no resources to live on?
    You can never ensure your survival. This is life and the only thing you can be sure of is death.


    Ed:
    More to the point, though, you do what humans have been doing for a couple of hundred thousand years - you ask your fellow man for help through the tough times.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-20-12 at 12:56 PM.
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  8. #358
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    The more I read from libertarians such as our friend Centinel, I really think its an elaborate scam just to avoid paying taxes.
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  9. #359
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    Why doesnt minarchy work? Id like to hear your opinion, id like to know your political leaning just for knowledge of different ideology objections to my own.
    Do we agree with this definition ?

    The Specter of Minarchy - NYTimes.com
    Of course, minarchy cannot work....But , man may be ready fot this 5,000 years down the road...
    "Progressive", IMO.
    Should we be taking steps to this end ?
    yes, I think so, but we must be most careful, which we have NOT been.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    The air is no ones property ...

    Also my point is property rights are not fundamental.



    Thats not what I'm saying, lets say people's farms have been washed away due to a flood but one guys farm has been saved, I'd say the community has the right to that farm.

    I'm saying that property rights are not absolute and are secondary to social need, in other words property is a means to an end, not an end in itself, if something works better being in private property fine, if it doesn't then no.

    at that point I'd rather just get rid of the whole concept of private property, because what I'm talking about isn't that, in the way people think of it.
    IMO, land ownership is inheritly wrong...it should not be bought and sold..
    However all the fruits of a man's labor should be his, after taxes, of course.

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