View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #281
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Well, if Locke said "Every man has a Property in his own Person" and by "property" he means "life, liberty, and estate." then it probably seemed redundant to Jefferson to reference property thrice in the same clause. So I think he might have replaced "estate" with "Pursuit of Happiness" because that phrase upholds the concept of "exercising ones rights" to pursue prosperity aka property.
    Locke was fixated on property:
    3. Political power, then, I take to be a right of making laws, with penalties of death, and consequently all less penalties for the regulating and preserving of property, and of employing the force of the community in the execution of such laws, and in the defence of the commonwealth from foreign injury, and all this only for the public good.
    So property and the enforcement of laws that protect property are mentioned as one and two in Locke's reasoning for political power. As an after-thought he also reasoned that maybe government should be concerned with invasion as well. I'm sorry, that seems just a tad backward to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Essentially it boils down to that happiness is to be secure in one's own possession and after all, isn't that what we are all pursuing?
    Is it?

    Money can't buy love - and I don't care how many rich people think that's a lie. My life's path hasn't been covered in roses so I've learned first hand that love and friendship and many other things in life are much more important than possessions. If you feel differently then we'll have to agree to disagree.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-19-12 at 12:32 PM.
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  2. #282
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Here is what I said

    What I keep telling you - and what you keep avoiding like the plague - is that this libertarian construct was most likely built from the conclusion backwards.

    You do understand the term MOST LIKELY is a judgment on my part based on an understanding of the situation but which cannot be proved nor disproved with actual evidence because that is not available to me..... don't you?
    Thanks for clarifying. I see now that you were merely speculating.

  3. #283
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What I have found over the years is that the radical right uses words like FREEDOM and LIBERTY the way a lounge lizard uses the word LOVE fifteen minutes before the bar closes. And their end goal is exactly the same.
    Before I dismiss your assertion out of hand, could you try a second time to explain the end goal of the radical right?

  4. #284
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Again with the "ownership is an ethical principal" thing?!?
    I think you misunderstand. The ethical principle is that it is wrong to take or destroy what other people own.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Of course. When they frame it that way it makes anyone going against it a dirty low-down amoral scumbag who would sell out his mother for a shot of heroin to they can get high and engage in child pornography.
    If one does not wish to be reviled as a thief or a thug, then one ought not hurt other people or take what others own.

    Again, it's very simple, and we all learned it in kindergarten. Don't hit other people, and don't take their stuff.

  6. #286
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Locke was fixated on property:
    3. Political power, then, I take to be a right of making laws, with penalties of death, and consequently all less penalties for the regulating and preserving of property, and of employing the force of the community in the execution of such laws, and in the defence of the commonwealth from foreign injury, and all this only for the public good.
    So property and the enforcement of laws that protect property are mentioned as one and two in Locke's reasoning for political power. As an after-thought he also reasoned that maybe government should be concerned with invasion as well. I'm sorry, that seems just a tad backward to me.
    Thats not how I read it. First Locke says, political power is the right to make laws including the death penatly. Then he says, all less penalties are for the regulating and preserving of property. Then he says, the community enforces and execute the laws in the defense of the commonwealth, including foreign injury, for the public good. It doesn't sound backward to me, in fact it sounds almost identical to our system of government.


    Is it?

    Money can't buy love - and I don't care how many rich people think that's a lie. My life's path hasn't been covered in roses so I've learned first hand that love and friendship and many other things in life are much more important than possessions. If you feel differently then we'll have to agree to disagree.
    Once again I think you misread or misunderstand. Self possession, self knowledge, self awareness, self control are virtues imo and freedom only comes when we are secure in our selves. So I guess we will just have to disagree.
    Last edited by Moot; 06-19-12 at 07:20 PM.

  7. #287
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Before I dismiss your assertion out of hand, could you try a second time to explain the end goal of the radical right?
    To get the unsuspecting to go along with their plans and desires.
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  8. #288
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    If one does not wish to be reviled as a thief or a thug, then one ought not hurt other people or take what others own.

    Again, it's very simple, and we all learned it in kindergarten. Don't hit other people, and don't take their stuff.
    Yes, that seems to work very very well.

    In a kindergarten environment.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  9. #289
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    To get the unsuspecting to go along with their plans and desires.
    That doesnt answer the question.

    Edit:

    Also why do you keep saying far right? If you are arguing against libertarianism, i would say you have your political spectrum all messed up.
    Last edited by LibertyBurns; 06-19-12 at 07:32 PM.

  10. #290
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    If one does not wish to be reviled as a thief or a thug, then one ought not hurt other people or take what others own.

    Again, it's very simple, and we all learned it in kindergarten. Don't hit other people, and don't take their stuff.
    Yup, enlightened self-interest. Not natural law.
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