View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #261
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Boy did that go a mile over your head.

    The point is that when you present some rightist interpretation of history to us, you do so like it is a done deal and settled beyond dispute. And it clearly is not as even your response indicates.

    Do you get it now?
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  2. #262
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What I keep telling you - and what you keep avoiding like the plague - is that this libertarian construct was most likely built from the conclusion backwards.
    Yes, you've made this assertion before. Provide your proof, and we can judge whether your claim is true.

    Like nearly all libertarian schemes and dreams, the goal is to weaken or destroy government and provide justification for opposing government programs like paying ones taxes. That is what you folks strive towards. It is your cause celebre. It is your Holy Grail.

    This whole nonsense about owning yourself or not initiating aggression or all the other nonsense is just lipstick on the pig. Its belabored and contrived in its Machiavellian purposes.
    Again, we'd all be interested in seeing your proof that the tradition of classical liberal and libertarian thought was built from the conclusion backwards.

    So I do not want people to be free according to you?

    What does that mean?

    Could you please cite any of my posts in which I stated that I do not want people to be free?
    Certainly. It means to be free from the initiation of attack, theft, or fraud against one's physical person or one's property.

    What I have found over the years is that the radical right uses words like FREEDOM and LIBERTY the way a lounge lizard uses the word LOVE fifteen minutes before the bar closes. And their end goal is exactly the same.
    Interesting. What would you say is their goal?

  3. #263
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Boy did that go a mile over your head.

    The point is that when you present some rightist interpretation of history to us, you do so like it is a done deal and settled beyond dispute. And it clearly is not as even your response indicates.

    Do you get it now?
    How did it go over my head? People think the intent of commerce clause is not settled, but that doesn't make it not settled, but it does make them wrong.

    and how in the world is it rightist interpretation when I learned it from a leftist?
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-19-12 at 07:50 AM.

  4. #264
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    How did it go over my head? People think the intent of commerce clause is not settled, but that doesn't make it not settled, but it does make them wrong.

    and how in the world is it rightist interpretation when I learned it from a leftist?
    The answer has something to do with a lounge lizard I think...

  5. #265
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually its a belabored and contrived scam designed to led somebody down the garden path so they then accept all the libertarian precepts that will follow as sure as day follows night. Its an elaborate ruse designed to get the unsuspecting to come to the usual libertarian conclusion that government needs to be shrunken and taxes are evil.

    Magicians are far more honest with standard misdirection.

    gonna provide a real argument anytime soon?.. or are we stuck with your paranoid ramblings?

  6. #266
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It's interesting you mention Jefferson. Did you also take note that Locke used "Life, Liberty, and Property" in his Treatise but Jefferson used "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" when he penned the Declaration of Independence? Why do you suppose that is? If Jefferson felt so strongly about the subject then why replace that word? He could have simply added Pursuit of Happiness to the end of Locke's words - but he didn't. I've read several of the letters Jefferson wrote. He seems to have had a very different view on property than what many believe
    Well, if Locke said "Every man has a Property in his own Person" and by "property" he means "life, liberty, and estate." then it probably seemed redundant to Jefferson to reference property thrice in the same clause. So I think he might have replaced "estate" with "Pursuit of Happiness" because that phrase upholds the concept of "exercising ones rights" to pursue prosperity aka property. Essentially it boils down to that happiness is to be secure in one's own possession and after all, isn't that what we are all pursuing? But it's true that some people don't think that Jefferson referenced Locke, but as you can see I'm not one of them.

    I'm a sentient being and as such cannot be owned by anyone.
    Sentient just means you have "life" like everything else that has life, plants, birds, insects, etc.. And yes, life can be owned. Self ownership is a concept that compliments a sentient being by giving it exclusivity of ownership over it's own life. It's a basic freedom, a natural and moral right to own one's self. I don't understand why anyone would reject it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Ummm, if you look back through the thread I did NOT use Jefferson. Someone else quoted him as though he supported Locke 100% on this matter. I voiced the opinion that he probably didn't agree with Locke on the subject.
    I guess that was me but I don't support the matter 100%, it's more like 60% to 70%. You voiced the opinion that Jefferson probably didn't agree with Locke on the subject, but you really didn't provide any evidence or reasons why. Do you have any because I would be interested to see it?

  7. #267
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Well, if Locke said "Every man has a Property in his own Person" and by "property" he means "life, liberty, and estate." then it probably seemed redundant to Jefferson to reference property thrice in the same clause. So I think he might have replaced "estate" with "Pursuit of Happiness" because that phrase upholds the concept of "exercising ones rights" to pursue prosperity aka property. Essentially it boils down to that happiness is to be secure in one's own possession and after all, isn't that what we are all pursuing? But it's true that some people don't think that Jefferson referenced Locke, but as you can see I'm not one of them.
    This stupid crap is just annoying. Don't you think its a bit strange that to believe in your theory you have to assume a bunch of things? Mason used the damn phrase and Jefferson admitted stealing it from him. This is NOT an open topic.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-19-12 at 08:56 AM.

  8. #268
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    This stupid crap is just annoying. Don't you think its a bit strange that to believe in your theory you have to assume a bunch things? Mason used the damn phrase and Jefferson admitted stealing it from him. This is NOT an open topic.
    Did it ever occur to you that Mason was also influenced by Locke? I assume you can provide the quote of Jefferson admitting "stealing" from Mason?

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?


    As long as you stay out of prison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Ownership simply means that one has the exclusive right to use a particular thing. So yes, I would say that we each own our own physical bodies. We each have an exclusive claim on the use of our physical bodies. No other person has a claim on our bodies.

    I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Bob Dylan

  10. #270
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Ummm, if you look back through the thread I did NOT use Jefferson. Someone else quoted him as though he supported Locke 100% on this matter. I voiced the opinion that he probably didn't agree with Locke on the subject.
    It was directed at Moot's use of Jefferson, not you. I should have clarified.
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