View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #251
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Indentured servants also agree to their contractual bindings, that doesn't make them any less physical property of the contract holder.
    I agree. A persons that consents to sell their labor to someone else still owns their own self. It's little different than working for someone or signing a contract to work for certain number of years in exchange for wages or salary or stock options. Indentured servants were brought over to the US to work a certain number of years for private individuals in exchange for their ship's passage and their room and board. When their contract expired they were free to go work for whoever or even start their own business.

  2. #252
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    I agree. A persons that consents to sell their labor to someone else still owns their own self. It's little different than working for someone or signing a contract to work for certain number of years in exchange for wages or salary or stock options. Indentured servants were brought over to the US to work a certain number of years for private individuals in exchange for their ship's passage and their room and board. When their contract expired they were free to go work for whoever or even start their own business.
    True, conditions were very harsh though, and they were treated rough. Merrymount actually set his servants free and his colony was the better for it, the Pilgrims on the otherhand haha... Their servants were contracted to go to the virginia colony so the contract was broken, they on the ship, seized power from the majority and made sure the servants stayed. Merrymount was a prime target for runaways

    Edit:

    Now when i say this, I mean the servants could better pay for their travel if not confined by their masters. I actually just wrote about the contracts, which were usually 7 years in a communist enviroment for a few years until they granted stocks in the company and land.
    Last edited by LibertyBurns; 06-19-12 at 01:27 AM.

  3. #253
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I must congratulate you on getting the absolute maximum number of libertarian cliches into just these small number of lines. Well done!!!!

    The thing that is really impressive is how over 200 posts do not seem to matter and the same statements of belief are simply repeated again and again and again like the real world never raised it ugly head into Wonderland.

    Its really quite amazing!!!!
    Please notice how haymarket wrote some words and threw up some smileys but was careful to avoid actually addressing my post. We call that "pulling a haymarket".

  4. #254
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    there is nothing evil in saying the people are property... it's an innocuous term , in and of itself... it's simply a term denoting possession.
    the term might have nasty historical connotations, but what makes those connotations nasty is that rightful ownership was not applied in those cases.

    people being property wasn't wrong.. people being property of the wrong owners was wrong.
    Actually its a belabored and contrived scam designed to led somebody down the garden path so they then accept all the libertarian precepts that will follow as sure as day follows night. Its an elaborate ruse designed to get the unsuspecting to come to the usual libertarian conclusion that government needs to be shrunken and taxes are evil.

    Magicians are far more honest with standard misdirection.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #255
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Please notice how haymarket wrote some words and threw up some smileys but was careful to avoid actually addressing my post. We call that "pulling a haymarket".
    I am honored that my screen name is being used to describe the use of positive emoticons. That makes me feel happy.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #256
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Do you make a fool of yourself on purpose? Look up what Mason had to say about it. What I said matches.
    Mason? And I should care about that because??????

    In this case, the foolish behavior seems solely on your head. You are telling us that the pursuit of happiness does not really mean the pursuit of happiness. This is typical far right libertarianism having to get you to not only learn a new vocabulary to be able to understand half of what they try to say - but in this case UNLEARN the old vocabulary because the words really do not mean what you think they mean.

    When you present historical evidence and then interpret for us, what you do is touch upon a controversial matter that is far far far from decided or agreed upon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pursuit_of_happiness

    A number of possible sources or inspirations for Jefferson's use of the phrase in the Declaration of Independence have been identified, although scholars debate the extent to which any one of them actually influenced Jefferson. The greatest disagreement comes between those who suggest that the phrase was drawn from John Locke and those who identify some other source.
    Once again, you present us with a minority view and then act like its settled law and a done deal that nobody even yawns about anymore.

    Sorry, but very few here seem to be buying what you are selling.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-19-12 at 07:39 AM.
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  7. #257
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually its a belabored and contrived scam designed to led somebody down the garden path so they then accept all the libertarian precepts that will follow as sure as day follows night. Its an elaborate ruse designed to get the unsuspecting to come to the usual libertarian conclusion that government needs to be shrunken and taxes are evil.

    Magicians are far more honest with standard misdirection.
    Yes, haymarket, ethical principles have implications and consequences. You don't like that, I know, because you are very opposed to people being free.

  8. #258
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    well, in practical terms, intangible aspects of people( thoughts, dreams, aspirations, ) cannot be owned by another, they can only be owned by the self.( until we find way to suck them out of people and take them over ) physical ownership, can, however, impact those intangible aspects in great ways.( great meaning "big", not "good")

    i'm sorry... "it's crap" is not an argument...it's a judgement with no supporting argumentation.

    Intellectual "property". Thoughts, dreams, ideas translated into original work is copyrighted ....all rights reserved. You were right, self ownership is almost everywhere.

  9. #259
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Yes, haymarket, ethical principles have implications and consequences. You don't like that, I know, because you are very opposed to people being free.
    What I keep telling you - and what you keep avoiding like the plague - is that this libertarian construct was most likely built from the conclusion backwards. Like nearly all libertarian schemes and dreams, the goal is to weaken or destroy government and provide justification for opposing government programs like paying ones taxes. That is what you folks strive towards. It is your cause celebre. It is your Holy Grail.

    This whole nonsense about owning yourself or not initiating aggression or all the other nonsense is just lipstick on the pig. Its belabored and contrived in its Machiavellian purposes.

    So I do not want people to be free according to you?

    What does that mean?

    Could you please cite any of my posts in which I stated that I do not want people to be free?

    What I have found over the years is that the radical right uses words like FREEDOM and LIBERTY the way a lounge lizard uses the word LOVE fifteen minutes before the bar closes. And their end goal is exactly the same.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #260
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Mason? And I should care about that because??????
    I have told you.

    In this case, the foolish behavior seems solely on your head. You are telling us that the pursuit of happiness does not really mean the pursuit of happiness. This is typical far right libertarianism having to get you to not only learn a new vocabulary to be able to understand half of what they try to say - but in this case UNLEARN the old vocabulary because the words really do not mean what you think they mean.
    I told you what was meant by the word happiness. You can argue against it or not.

    When you present historical evidence and then interpret for us, what you do is touch upon a controversial matter that is far far far from decided or agreed upon.

    Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That is interesting in its ignorance but besides that, its completely not worth noting. Anyone that thinks it was Locke needs to ignore Jefferson himself.

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