View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #241
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It's interesting you mention Jefferson. Did you also take note that Locke used "Life, Liberty, and Property" in his Treatise but Jefferson used "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" when he penned the Declaration of Independence? Why do you suppose that is? If Jefferson felt so strongly about the subject then why replace that word? He could have simply added Pursuit of Happiness to the end of Locke's words - but he didn't. I've read several of the letters Jefferson wrote. He seems to have had a very different view on property than what many believe.
    Pursuit of Happiness was purposefully substituted because it's broad, and open to interpretation. One cannot say what he clearly means, since there is no clear definition of the term. Property could easily be included in "pursuit of happiness", as could a great multitude of things. However, Jefferson is a poor example of self ownership, since he himself was a slave owner. In one of his letters, he clearly recognizes that slavery is morally reprehensible, though he died a slave owner. His reasoning was that slavery allowed him the luxury of his intellectual pursuits, which is a pretty lame excuse in my opinion.
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  2. #242
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I deleted my post, withdrawing my comments from discussion. Sorry I didn't do it fast enough ...
    no harm , no foul... consider your comments stricken from the record

  3. #243
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Pursuit of Happiness was purposefully substituted because it's broad, and open to interpretation. One cannot say what he clearly means, since there is no clear definition of the term. Property could easily be included in "pursuit of happiness", as could a great multitude of things. However, Jefferson is a poor example of self ownership, since he himself was a slave owner. In one of his letters, he clearly recognizes that slavery is morally reprehensible, though he died a slave owner. His reasoning was that slavery allowed him the luxury of his intellectual pursuits, which is a pretty lame excuse in my opinion.
    aye, even the "greats" are susceptible to great feats of mindboggling hypocrisy...

  4. #244
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So happiness had nothing to do with happiness.

    And you have the nerve to talk about what others do not know.
    Do you make a fool of yourself on purpose? Look up what Mason had to say about it. What I said matches.

  5. #245
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Pursuit of Happiness was purposefully substituted because it's broad, and open to interpretation. One cannot say what he clearly means, since there is no clear definition of the term.
    Where did you get that idea? I'm always willing to read reliable information about the Founding Fathers, particularly Jefferson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Property could easily be included in "pursuit of happiness", as could a great multitude of things. However, Jefferson is a poor example of self ownership, since he himself was a slave owner. In one of his letters, he clearly recognizes that slavery is morally reprehensible, though he died a slave owner. His reasoning was that slavery allowed him the luxury of his intellectual pursuits, which is a pretty lame excuse in my opinion.
    I am aware of Jefferson's personal dilemma on the subject of slavery.
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  6. #246
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    aye, even the "greats" are susceptible to great feats of mindboggling hypocrisy...
    As a founder that was instrumental in building a radically new governmental system, he was a brilliant man. As a human being, he had some major flaws. Even he saw the hypocrisy in slave ownership, but it facilitated the only way of living that he really knew and enjoyed. Every man has his weakness, slaves were apparently his. Not sure if it's true or not, but I heard the slave he had children with, Sally Hemings, was actually the half-sister of his deceased wife.
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  7. #247
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Its wonderful when you write the punch lines and it is yourself that is being punched.
    So am I to believe this is an argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by you
    These two statements in the same post have a certain simplicity of beauty about them.

    Of course, the silliness comes from the first statement.

  8. #248
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Where did you get that idea? I'm always willing to read reliable information about the Founding Fathers, particularly Jefferson.
    Personal deduction. Because of their experience in dealing with Parliaments wonderful brand of legalism, it only makes sense that Jefferson would want to leave certain things as broad as possible. Jefferson may have also felt that it would have been in poor taste to entirely plagiarize Locke. I could be wrong.

    I am aware of Jefferson's personal dilemma on the subject of slavery.
    Just saying. I personally would have used Franklin on this topic over Jefferson. If not mistaken, he was one of the very few Founding Fathers that didn't own slaves. He was just as adamant, if not more than Jefferson, about personal freedom and liberties, as well. People overuse Jefferson. Great writer, great philosopher, but ultimately a hypocrite.
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  9. #249
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Personal deduction. Because of their experience in dealing with Parliaments wonderful brand of legalism, it only makes sense that Jefferson would want to leave certain things as broad as possible. Jefferson may have also felt that it would have been in poor taste to entirely plagiarize Locke. I could be wrong.


    Just saying. I personally would have used Franklin on this topic over Jefferson. If not mistaken, he was one of the very few Founding Fathers that didn't own slaves. He was just as adamant, if not more than Jefferson, about personal freedom and liberties, as well. People overuse Jefferson. Great writer, great philosopher, but ultimately a hypocrite.
    Ummm, if you look back through the thread I did NOT use Jefferson. Someone else quoted him as though he supported Locke 100% on this matter. I voiced the opinion that he probably didn't agree with Locke on the subject.
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  10. #250
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    One thing to be borne in mind is that classical liberal thought was developed in a time when the world was functionally infinite.

    There was a "commons" from whence we all were entitled to take what we needed to live.
    When I talked about contracts, I mean in the way contracts started arising between feudal lords/ land owners and the Peasantry. Such as protection and in other cases such as distribution of food, you see an evolution in society. You start to see grants of lands from the lords of the time. Though you know these actions were about power, and as time goes on you see more and more centralization of power. These are not good conditions but, at least it started something that couldnt be stopped, the case for liberty. You start seeing more rights for individuals pop up and get knocked down but, not all of course. When you talk about food you make me want to laugh, the land owners, nobles, kings owned the land and the peasantry worked the fields. England thought it was to populated because it couldnt feed all its people, nor those it did adequetly, Mercantilism was horrible... At least classical liberal thought is starting to become ripe. Communism in early American Colonies was devestating, these were the starving times. Not to mention most of the workers were contracted slaves for 7 years. It wasnt til the companies started giving acres to the different individuals, as well as stock in the company and allowing them to grow food to sustain them, that you start to see a higher quality life. Most people dont like to pull all the weight, they find this unfair, sorry thats people. Even though there were strict theocracy type governments, consisting of govenors throwing their power around, even shutting down elected assemblies, you have not seen a more free people. Some colonies even more such as the northern part Carolina which didnt have restrictive governments or even places of worship! Property rights and more free trade start to arrise yada yada you start to see the union of our states in response to more government intrusion and taxes. Classical liberal thought has been going on through all this and you see it in multiple places in europe breeding men capable of influencing the masses to rise against tyranny.

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Now almost everything is "owned" by someone.

    I can't just find some place in the wilderness and build a home and do some farming.

    I have to pay.
    What time period are you refering to? After the founding of our country? Above explains a bit before this period.

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    If I "own" my life, why must someone pay in order for me to sleep at night without breaking the law?

    We hear a lot from libertarians about not wanting to pay taxes to the government, but little about all the "life taxes" levied by owners of property.
    Who says we wont pay taxes, I would for what government should be responsible for, enforcing contracts, officers of the peace (not hostile one our government creates with its laws), protection of the borders, fire fighters, things of this nature. Not being a nanny and telling me what i can and cant do. Also you should be glad you even have the right to own land, you complain about buying or paying for something with your work/contribution to the demand of the people...

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Why, when the "commons" became impractical due to population, did we settle on "rents" as the solution.

    That's what the feudal lords came up with.
    Again, the state deciding what you need... It was not as grande as you make it out to be.

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