View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #221
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Liberty is the concept that you own your life.
    This is why would-be tyrants denigrate and ridicule the very notion of liberty. Their goal of controlling you is thwarted to the extent that their claim of ownership is seen as illegitimate.

    They have no use for ethics, and mock all talk of principle as the domain of dilettantes. However, even a third grader can see them for what they are: thugs who rule by fear, compulsion, and brute force.

  2. #222
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Sorry Mo, I have to disagree on this one. You own you. You are responsible for you. No else has the right to own you, your body or your labor without your consent. You can sell or barter your labor to create value. Self ownership is a concept that goes back to the Magna Carta and it has to do with who owns your labor. Free men own their own labor. John Locke used the concept of self ownership in his 2nd Treatise on Government which inspired many constitutions including the US constitution. Thomas Jefferson made reference to it in the Declaration of Independence and even Abraham Lincoln understood the concept of self ownership when he helped to bring about and signed the 13th amendment.....


    Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
    Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.[2]


    If labor has value, which it does, then it can be treated as property and used as trade. That is why slavery existed and why we fought a Civil War. Now, no one can own you or your labor, except you. No one can force you to work or work without compensation. You are free to use or sell your own labor to create value for yourself and/or others. Thats all it is.
    It's interesting you mention Jefferson. Did you also take note that Locke used "Life, Liberty, and Property" in his Treatise but Jefferson used "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" when he penned the Declaration of Independence? Why do you suppose that is? If Jefferson felt so strongly about the subject then why replace that word? He could have simply added Pursuit of Happiness to the end of Locke's words - but he didn't. I've read several of the letters Jefferson wrote. He seems to have had a very different view on property than what many believe.


    I'm a sentient being and as such cannot be owned by anyone.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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  3. #223
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Ownership is a social convention. Ownership simply means that one has the exclusive right to use a particular thing. I own my car, so I may use it to the exclusion of others.

    With regard to self-ownership, each of us own his or her own body, and nobody else does. Nobody is the property of another.

    I think this thread has demonstrated that the use of the word "own" in this context is somewhat awkward and unusual. Perhaps there is a better way to describe the concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I'll continue to advocate for a society in which a person can be owned only by himself and nobody else. The alternative is one person owning another, which is to say slavery.
    In one breath you say there might be a better way to describe the concept and in the next you seem to negate such a possibility. Here you've turned the coin over instead of simply throwing it away. Regardless of how much you and your friends want to believe it, not everything should be reduced to property - especially people.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  4. #224
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    In one breath you say there might be a better way to describe the concept and in the next you seem to negate such a possibility. Here you've turned the coin over instead of simply throwing it away. Regardless of how much you and your friends want to believe it, not everything can be reduced to property - especially people.
    I am not suggesting that people be reduced to property. I am suggesting that each person has an exclusive right to control his own person, from which it follows that no person should ever be the property of another.

  5. #225
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It's interesting you mention Jefferson. Did you also take note that Locke used "Life, Liberty, and Property" in his Treatise but Jefferson used "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" when he penned the Declaration of Independence? Why do you suppose that is? If Jefferson felt so strongly about the subject then why replace that word? He could have simply added Pursuit of Happiness to the end of Locke's words - but he didn't. I've read several of the letters Jefferson wrote. He seems to have had a very different view on property than what many believe.


    I'm a sentient being and as such cannot be owned by anyone.
    Jefferson got the line he abused in the DOI from Mason. You like Haymarket need to learn your history.

    Second, pursuit of happiness has nothing to do with happiness as in joy but the legal constructs to protect liberty which did include property. Do not waste my time speaking of things you don't understand and then act like you somehow win based on ignorance. I consider it rude.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-18-12 at 10:38 PM.

  6. #226
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Jefferson got the line he abused in the DOI from Mason. You like Haymarket need to learn your history.

    Second, pursuit of happiness has nothing to do with happiness as in joy but the legal constructs to protect liberty which did include property. Do not waste my time speaking of things you don't understand and then act like you somehow win based on ignorance. I consider it rude.
    So he was compelled to use that line and not one of his own?

    Or are you saying he didn't know Locke well enough to have changed it himself?


    But I'm always willing to learn. Where does Jefferson talk about the origin of the phrase "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"?
    Or where does Mason take credit for the phrase?
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-18-12 at 11:11 PM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  7. #227
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    yes, of course I own myself... and you out there, ya you.... you own yourself too.

    despite the ramblings of idiots, self ownership really has nothing to do with a secret evil Libertarian agenda.
    although it is prioritized by libertarianism and classic liberalism ( and a few other ideologies)... they did not invent the concept, they do not own the concept, and it is not bestowed upon you by registering Libertarian....Haymarket's Domino Theory is bunk, it's garbage, it's nonsense.. a fallacy.

    even the most diehard of authoritarians owns himself... that commie over there?.. ya , him too... the anarchist?... yup, him as well.


    the concept of self ownership is codified into our culture, our laws, out government, our parenting , our personal and commercial relationships... hell , I can't think of anything that it isn't present in.

    as Moot so astutely points out, John Locke did a fine job putting the concept into words.... he's not the only philosopher who has done so, he's just the guy who was able to sum it up the best.

    self ownership is not antithesis to the Social Contract ( the philosophers who penned the concept are also adherents to the concept of self ownership).. in fact, the social Contract theory relies on self-ownership for it's legitimacy...self ownership is simply part and parcel of the Social Contract.
    the social contract holds that humans , in a state of nature, are self owned and possessing of natural rights.. that is the starting point, or basis, for the whole shebang... from there, it uses the concept of self ownership, and the peripheral tenants of ownership itself, to legitimize the idea of the state having a certain amount of authority over the individual, in order to coexist in a collective.. a society.
    consent is another codification of self ownership.. simply because it is permission given by the "owner" of the "property"... whether that consent be explicit, implied, or tactic, it's still considered permission from the bossman... consent is found to be necessary to legitimize encroachments into personal sovereignty.
    if consent is necessary, ownership is present, simple as.

    anyways, if you believe in the Social Contract, you too believe in self-ownership.

    i've seen someone earlier in the thread question why self ownership is considered a question of ethics...that's an easy one to answer.
    I think we can all agree that there have been cases of another party taking ownership of an individual, or more accurately, partial ownership ( one cannot own another thoughts, dreams, etc... they can only exert physical control over another)
    the consent of self ownership simply explains why that is wrong... if taking ownership of another person is wrong, there must be a right to counter the wrong... that condition of being right is found in self ownership.
    now, one might say that non-ownership is the right to counter the wrong, however, a position of non-ownership cannot be applied in practical terms.
    ownership exists... it's a simple as that... people CAN own other people....it's been done all throughout history, and it's still being done.
    given that ownership does exist, one cannot argue that it doesn't.. one must argue as to the where rightful ownership must be applied in order to be legitimate.
    if ownership exists, and we find it wrong for another to own another, we are left with a single choice... that of ownership of the self.

    anyways, yeah... self ownership is an ethical matter, as it simply breaks down where rightful ownership lies.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    In one breath you say there might be a better way to describe the concept and in the next you seem to negate such a possibility. Here you've turned the coin over instead of simply throwing it away. Regardless of how much you and your friends want to believe it, not everything should be reduced to property - especially people.

    all throughout history it's been proven that people (or at least tangible aspects of people) are property.... that is rather undeniable.

    in very practical terms, anything that is tangible can be property... denial does not address the problems though, fleshing out legitimate and rightful ownership does.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    You have nothing to say hay? Don't worry, that is expected from you.
    Oh - it was said loud and clear and by your reaction it hit right as it should have.
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Oh - it was said loud and clear and by your reaction it hit right as it should have.
    What did you say again??

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