View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #211
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Self ownership is an archaic term based on 18-19th century sociopolitical philosophy. I take it to mean ownership of the person as an entity, not property by todays standards. By that I mean one can physically own a person (via slavery, indentured servitude, and/or contractual obligation, such as military service), but they cannot own what makes the person a [wo]man, and not an animated piece of meat. The mind, the intellect, the wants, etc of the individual. For example, the Army owned my physical self for four years, but they did not own "me". I was still my own person, subject to tell whoever to eat a dick at any time.
    But you gave your consent to the army to use your labor for four years. Otherwise it would have been involuntary servitude. Perhaps that is why so many rebelled against the draft.

  2. #212
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    One thing to be borne in mind is that classical liberal thought was developed in a time when the world was functionally infinite.

    There was a "commons" from whence we all were entitled to take what we needed to live.

    Now almost everything is "owned" by someone.

    I can't just find some place in the wilderness and build a home and do some farming.

    I have to pay.
    Never has one been able to take what they needed to live without paying. Building a home and doing some farming involves using your labor to give value to the land that it didn't have before. Your labor has value when it is used to create something that you or others want and/or can use.

    If I "own" my life, why must someone pay in order for me to sleep at night without breaking the law?
    This statement seemed nonsensical to me, can you rephrase or explain it another way? If you own your life why wouldn't you be able to sleep or why should someone pay in order for you to sleep? I have no idea the point you're trying to make.


    We hear a lot from libertarians about not wanting to pay taxes to the government, but little about all the "life taxes" levied by owners of property.

    Why, when the "commons" became impractical due to population, did we settle on "rents" as the solution.

    That's what the feudal lords came up with.
    What do you mean by "life taxes" levided by owners of property. Are you talking about "rent seeking"? When was this "commons" you keep talking about?

  3. #213
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    But you gave your consent to the army to use your labor for four years. Otherwise it would have been involuntary servitude. Perhaps that is why so many rebelled against the draft.
    I gave them my service for personal reasons, but once I was in, I quickly became very disenfranchised with a lot of it. Certain individuals, regardless of rank, got nothing but contempt and the absolute bare minimum from me. Sometimes, not even what regulation required of me because they abused their authority over stupid ****. At first I was passive-aggressive toward them. Later on, openly hostile to those individuals. It got me in trouble plenty of times, but the end result was worth it. Nothing changed, except that I demonstrated that I can't be broken. I told them through my actions that "you don't own me." The same is said through any subversive act, or rebellion towards those physically owned one way or another. You can bind a person, but you can't bind their will.

    The draft, though gone with no sign of ever returning, is a more apt example, but one that I have no experience with. However, if I were drafted, I would have refused to go.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  4. #214
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Rights are built on the backbone of the concept of freedom shaped around the realities of destruction and consent that include all possible actions one could take. The root of this is the being itself that because of its right to stay free from harm unless otherwise consented too the right to life is born.

    The idea you can reject the former to claim that you came up with it is absurdity.
    You said it yourself that "freedom is a concept." A concept is an idea, an abstract man made idea. It seems more absurd to reject the concept and then claim it as a reality that needs to be recognized. The being has no rights except what others chose to recognize and protect as such. There is nothing absolute about rights. Yesterday slavery was recognized as a right, today it isn't. Things change, people change, societies change, religions change, everything in nature changes...nothing stays the same forever. So if there is such a thing as an absolute then "change" is it. Change is the only absolute.

  5. #215
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    I gave them my service for personal reasons, but once I was in, I quickly became very disenfranchised with a lot of it. Certain individuals, regardless of rank, got nothing but contempt and the absolute bare minimum from me. Sometimes, not even what regulation required of me because they abused their authority over stupid ****. At first I was passive-aggressive toward them. Later on, openly hostile to those individuals. It got me in trouble plenty of times, but the end result was worth it. Nothing changed, except that I demonstrated that I can't be broken. I told them through my actions that "you don't own me." The same is said through any subversive act, or rebellion towards those physically owned one way or another. You can bind a person, but you can't bind their will.

    The draft, though gone with no sign of ever returning, is a more apt example, but one that I have no experience with. However, if I were drafted, I would have refused to go.
    For whatever reason, joining the army was still your choice and you gave your consent. How you handled yourself after freely giving your consent was also your choice.

  6. #216
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    No, this is crap-- another false dichotomy. Murder is a problem because civilization requires order. If civilization has orderly laws governing homicide, then homicides that occur within the bounds of those laws-- to an almost outrageous extreme-- are simply not a problem. A lot of the problems our society has now concerning street violence are a consequence of attempting to over-regulate homicide.
    Liberty is the concept that you own your life. That you can use your time, energy and talents to go after whatever it is that you want and often times this leads to going after property. Like property no one can take way your life and stop you from having your liberty to do with it whatever it is that you please. Everyone has this right and so that means that no one is higher than an other and we are created equal. Liberty is the idea that we can do whatever it is that we want as long as it doesn't violate the rights of another. Liberty wasn't created by society so naturally neither was the right to your life.

    No, I can not. I can, at most, sell parts of it. I could, theoretically, sell parts of it that I require for life-- but then removing those parts would constitute murder under the laws of most societies. I could, theoretically and if the law allowed, sell myself into chattel slavery but I would have the same moral obligation to regain my freedom as any other slave. I can not sign such a contract because I can not honorably keep it.
    Don't be silly. We all have a right to do whatever it is that we please with our lives and that includes selling ourselves out to the highest bidder if that is what we decide to do.

  7. #217
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    For whatever reason, joining the army was still your choice and you gave your consent. How you handled yourself after freely giving your consent was also your choice.
    Indentured servants also agree to their contractual bindings, that doesn't make them any less physical property of the contract holder.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  8. #218
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    You said it yourself that "freedom is a concept." A concept is an idea, an abstract man made idea. It seems more absurd to reject the concept and then claim it as a reality that needs to be recognized. The being has no rights except what others chose to recognize and protect as such. There is nothing absolute about rights. Yesterday slavery was recognized as a right, today it isn't. Things change, people change, societies change, religions change, everything in nature changes...nothing stays the same forever. So if there is such a thing as an absolute then "change" is it. Change is the only absolute.
    Is the idea of liberty created by people or observed? Observed obviously.

  9. #219
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Liberty is the concept that you own your life.


    Don't be silly.
    These two statements in the same post have a certain simplicity of beauty about them.

    Of course, the silliness comes from the first statement.
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    These two statements in the same post have a certain simplicity of beauty about them.

    Of course, the silliness comes from the first statement.
    You have nothing to say hay? Don't worry, that is expected from you.

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