View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #191
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    No rights are absolute. In fact, nothing is. There is no guarentee that a right to life will prevent you from dying sooner or later.
    Indeed. Nor does the right to life mean that someone won't kill you. What right to life does mean is that should your life be threatened, you may legitimately respond to the thread. And if someone does infringe upon another's right to life, we can rightfully and justly use government force against said individual.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #192
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    So, hypothetically, if someone comes up with a way to hypnotize or otherwise control your mind, they still will not "own" you?
    We're doing hypotheticals now?
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  3. #193
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Really? Then who is making the claim ThePlayDrive, that "nobody owns anybody". Give me a typical example in this case, of who is making this declaration, and who this declaration dictates ownership about.
    Nobody's making any declarations. Centinal is describing two types of societies and I'm describing a third that he did not include.

  4. #194
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    That's a blatantly false dichotomy. The other alternative is that nobody owns anybody.
    I'm fine with that. As long as no person owns another person. I think that was the gist of the OP.

  5. #195
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Of course... and that means that self-ownership is not an absolute, but a conditional state subject to modification. All too often the self-ownership concept is presented as an absolute, when it obviously isn't. There are caveats, addendums, and quid-pro-quos.... two of which are law and taxes btw...
    Who would be modifying it though? If we extend the argument to what you are implying, that there are these other caveats, etc, in each case we'll come back to the principle of individual freedom (natural rights, or ownership, whatever the confusing word of the day is).

    The absolute of natural rights is a concept, it's not that you are free "in reality", it's that the rules of choice and freedom, are only consistently accepted/self-consistent when you start with the premise sentient entities are free to choose. It doesn't mean they ARE free to choose in reality, i.e. they are enslaved and someone is beating the crap out of them...doesn't refute this, any more than it would refute 4+4=8.

    I don't think people get the argument, it keeps devolving into a semantic ass grab of "ownership means strictly yadayada", it misses the entire, underlying argument. Always does, natural rights discussions always have yahoos claiming rights only exist when we make them, entirely missing the point of why we make them, and why we make one, over another (it's not random!). Or maybe we just aren't very good at explaining it yet.

  6. #196
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Nobody's making any declarations. Centinal is describing two types of societies and I'm describing a third that he did not include.
    You are describing a third society that either:
    1. Has claimed nothing about ownership
    2. Has claimed that no one owns anybody.

    Which is it?

  7. #197
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Indeed. Nor does the right to life mean that someone won't kill you. What right to life does mean is that should your life be threatened, you may legitimately respond to the thread. And if someone does infringe upon another's right to life, we can rightfully and justly use government force against said individual.
    But even the right to self defense is not absolute. If there are other means of protecting yourself or your property besides the use violence or force then those must be considered first.
    Last edited by Moot; 06-18-12 at 06:05 PM.

  8. #198
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by moot
    No rights are absolute. In fact, nothing is.
    That's a contradiction. I suspect we all have made it (I have), but it always can use a good repeating.

  9. #199
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    That's a contradiction. I suspect we all have made it (I have), but it always can use a good repeating.
    Rights are a man made construct and as such are not absolute. Why is that a contradiction?

  10. #200
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Rights are a man made construct and as such are not absolute. Why is that a contradiction?
    You wrote specifically:
    No rights are absolute. In fact, nothing is.
    Nothing is absolute? Is an absolute statement. Which is contradictory.
    We do accept absolutes when we use logic, when we agree on the meaning of a word, etc. They are funny when we claim something in reality "is absolute", but they are serious when we are talking about meaning, math, etc.

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