View Poll Results: Do you own yourself (self ownership)? Should or shouldnt you own yourself?

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  • Yes (should)

    37 74.00%
  • Yes (shouldn't)

    0 0%
  • No (should)

    4 8.00%
  • No (shouldn't)

    9 18.00%
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Thread: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

  1. #181
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    False. A society that acknowledges that people cannot be owned offers a fine foundation for stability.
    I'll continue to advocate for a society in which a person can be owned only by himself and nobody else. The alternative is one person owning another, which is to say slavery.

  2. #182
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Or do your thoughts (e.g. your consciousness) "possess" your body?
    Well, I suppose that's possible too. I guess saying, "I possess my mind is almost redundant since I exists within the mind," but I that's another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Self ownership is an archaic term based on 18-19th century sociopolitical philosophy. I take it to mean ownership of the person as an entity, not property by todays standards. By that I mean one can physically own a person (via slavery, indentured servitude, and/or contractual obligation, such as military service), but they cannot own what makes the person a [wo]man, and not an animated piece of meat. The mind, the intellect, the wants, etc of the individual. For example, the Army owned my physical self for four years, but they did not own "me". I was still my own person, subject to tell whoever to eat a dick at any time.
    I agree that people can own others physically and cannot own others mentally. However, I disagree with the understanding of ownership that founds the belief that the military owns those within it. The military has authority over those within it, but I don't think that such authority constitutes ownership.

  3. #183
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think this type of "ownership" is the Dollhouse sort of thing wherein they can actually remove your consciousness and insert something else into your body that they have programmed for certain ends.
    I wasn't thinking of anything particular, just wondering if this was going to be a definition that could survive future developments or not. Even looking back at 60s spy novels where people were "programmed" as sleeper agents and the like. Is that an example of someone being "owned" or once this kind of thing is possible, are the goalposts just going to get moved?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #184
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I'll continue to advocate for a society in which a person can be owned only by himself and nobody else. The alternative is one person owning another, which is to say slavery.
    That's a blatantly false dichotomy. The other alternative is that nobody owns anybody.

  5. #185
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Ownership: the state, relation, or fact of being an owner. Is this the definition your using?

    Edit:

    Property: 2a: something owned or possessed.
    Last edited by LibertyBurns; 06-18-12 at 05:30 PM.

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    Ownership: the state, relation, or fact of being an owner. Is this the definition your using?

    Edit:

    Property: 2a: something owned or possessed.
    Whats scary about me owning my own body? Key word in own body, is own.

  7. #187
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    That's a blatantly false dichotomy. The other alternative is that nobody owns anybody.
    Really? Then who is making the claim ThePlayDrive, that "nobody owns anybody". Give me a typical example in this case, of who is making this declaration, and who this declaration dictates ownership about.

  8. #188
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    In many groups, for example the Catholic Church, it is immoral to even take your own life. I believe it is also quite illegal in many jurisdictions. That doesn't sound like "exclusive right to use" to me.



    Ed:
    You people that try to claim the fleas own the dog. *shakes head* It's sad, really, that you can't understand the web of life and how intertwined it all is. To suggest any kind of "natural" ownership of or right to any living thing is arrogance at it's finest. It's understandable in this day and age more than any other how people can get so detached from nature, but it's still sad to see it in what I've always assumed are relatively intelligent adults.
    Sorry Mo, I have to disagree on this one. You own you. You are responsible for you. No else has the right to own you, your body or your labor without your consent. You can sell or barter your labor to create value. Self ownership is a concept that goes back to the Magna Carta and it has to do with who owns your labor. Free men own their own labor. John Locke used the concept of self ownership in his 2nd Treatise on Government which inspired many constitutions including the US constitution. Thomas Jefferson made reference to it in the Declaration of Independence and even Abraham Lincoln understood the concept of self ownership when he helped to bring about and signed the 13th amendment.....


    Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
    Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.[2]


    If labor has value, which it does, then it can be treated as property and used as trade. That is why slavery existed and why we fought a Civil War. Now, no one can own you or your labor, except you. No one can force you to work or work without compensation. You are free to use or sell your own labor to create value for yourself and/or others. Thats all it is.

  9. #189
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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Yes, there are other ethical rules, and they all interact. Self-ownership does not exist in a vacuum. If one incurs a debt, then one is obliged to pay that debt. If one makes a commitment, one is obliged to fulfill that commitment. There are many rules that govern one's behavior; the idea of self-ownership is only one of several.


    Of course... and that means that self-ownership is not an absolute, but a conditional state subject to modification. All too often the self-ownership concept is presented as an absolute, when it obviously isn't. There are caveats, addendums, and quid-pro-quos.... two of which are law and taxes btw...

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    Re: Do you own yourself (self ownership)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Of course... and that means that self-ownership is not an absolute, but a conditional state subject to modification. All too often the self-ownership concept is presented as an absolute, when it obviously isn't. There are caveats, addendums, and quid-pro-quos.... two of which are law and taxes btw...
    No rights are absolute. In fact, nothing is. There is no guarentee that a right to life will prevent you from dying sooner or later.

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