• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Most anti-libertarian Presidents

Most anti-libertarian President?

  • Abraham Lincoln

    Votes: 10 25.6%

  • Woodrow Wilson

    Votes: 4 10.3%

  • Franklin Roosevelt

    Votes: 14 35.9%

  • Theodore Roosevelt

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Lyndon Johnson

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • George W. Bush

    Votes: 3 7.7%

  • Richard Nixon

    Votes: 2 5.1%

  • Herbert Hoover

    Votes: 1 2.6%

  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 2 5.1%

  • Other

    Votes: 3 7.7%
  • Total voters
    39
haymarket said:
Which "first four words"
Click to expand...

Libertarians are against slavery. You just went on ranting about how slavery exist, ummm yea nor did i disclaim that it did or does exist...

haymarket said:
I could not care less if libertarians are for or against anything. What they believe or do not believe is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Okay...

haymarket said:
What utter poppcock. Own yourself? Nonsense. Obviously people were owned and plenty of them. Tell them how they owned themselves so thus nobody could have owned them.

You talk nonsense. Reality speaks louder than all the libertarians combined.

This is merely another example of some libertarian whacko coming up with an axiom that is intended to justify knockignng down all the dominoes that he intends to place after it.

As in , of course you own yourself, so thus... blah blah blah blah blah.
Click to expand...

Again, your ranting about slavery. No one denies its existance you buffoon. This is a philosophy that tries to fight against your pro slavery ideology.


haymarket said:
You do NOT get to make choices in all spheres of life as long as you live in a society with others. Some of those choices are made for you by others. That is the way our society works. That is the way our government works. And if you refuse to abide by that and it means using aggression upon you- cover up your ass because its gonna get aggressed upon. If you don't like that arrangement, you have the perfect right to withdraw from it and go elsewhere just like the Puritans did in the 1600's.
Click to expand...

Is this good? Do you or anyone else believe that your choices should be made by others? When our society dictates that slavery, genocide, forced labor, censorship of all speech, etc, is okay, you will just follow the herd?

haymarket said:
I do imagine this is the sort of nonsense that keeps college sophomores who have drunk too much red bull up at 3 am. Everybody else - with the noted exception of libertarians - can just flush it where it belongs.
Click to expand...

Freedom = nonsense, sorry if i disagree with ya sheep...
 
earthworm said:
I wish that were true; but there are millions( even billions) who disagree.
We, of course, are more civilized than that....I think.
Click to expand...

Its a philosophy that should be adored, sadly your right, many do disagree.
 
LibertyBurns said:
Again, your ranting about slavery. No one denies its existance you buffoon. This is a philosophy that tries to fight against your pro slavery ideology.
Click to expand...

Here is a direct quote from you.

You own yourself so obviously no one can own you.
Click to expand...

That is a pretty sweeping statement that denies any person can own another person. And that is the definition of slavery.

So which is it? If you admit the existence of slavery, that somebody can indeed own you and that renders your precious libertarian axiom to have less utilitarian value than a fifty pound bag of garden manure.

Perhaps if you call me some more third grade level names like you did in your recent post, the wisdom may come to you?
 
haymarket said:
Here is a direct quote from you.



That is a pretty sweeping statement that denies any person can own another person. And that is the definition of slavery.

So which is it? If you admit the existence of slavery, that somebody can indeed own you and that renders your precious libertarian axiom to have less utilitarian value than a fifty pound bag of garden manure.

Perhaps if you call me some more third grade level names like you did in your recent post, the wisdom may come to you?
Click to expand...


i'm pretty sure his statement was dealing in moral judgements.

sure, it's possible to own a slave.... but owning a slave is always morally wrong, as it necessitates a multitude of rights denials ( that's where self ownership comes in)

if you disavow self ownership, you disavow individual rights... it's as simple as that.

I'm not surprised you see self ownership as "poppycock"... it makes the life of an authoritarian statist kinda difficult.
 
Thrilla said:
i'm pretty sure his statement was dealing in moral judgements.

sure, it's possible to own a slave.... but owning a slave is always morally wrong, as it necessitates a multitude of rights denials ( that's where self ownership comes in)

if you disavow self ownership, you disavow individual rights... it's as simple as that.

I'm not surprised you see self ownership as "poppycock"... it makes the life of an authoritarian statist kinda difficult.
Click to expand...

Then he should have said it like you said it and not as he said it.

This whole idea of "self ownership" is merely semantic gymnastics being employed by ideological extremists to further an extremist agenda. It is nonsense as I previously pointed out.

I have no idea what you mean when you mention "authoritarian statist". What does that mean and who are you referring to? I am no more an authoritatian statist than you are. Or did you convert to anarchism over night?
 
PrometheusBound said:
If you own a man's work, you own the man. Libertarians push this illusion about choice because they want to hide from themselves the reality that it's all about power.
Click to expand...

it is all about power... where folks differ is in their beliefs over where that power should rest and where it is derived from.
for some, it's in the individual.. for others, it's in the mythical entity called society... for others, it's in the state.

libertarianism categorically rejects slavery... and yet here are the contemporary liberals arguing about why that's wrong :lol:
politics never ceases to amaze me.
 
haymarket said:
Then he should have said it like you said it and not as he said it.

This whole idea of "self ownership" is merely semantic gymnastics being employed by ideological extremists to further an extremist agenda. It is nonsense as I previously pointed out.

I have no idea what you mean when you mention "authoritarian statist". What does that mean and who are you referring to? I am no more an authoritatian statist than you are. Or did you convert to anarchism over night?
Click to expand...

self ownership is the basis for all individual rights.... but yes, I do agree that it's "extremist" to believe in such things nowadays, and i'm completely unsurprised you reject self ownership as valid and proper.


you are vastly more authoritarian and statist than I, your arguments bear that out time and time again... and no, i'm not an anarchist. I can, however, be described as a minarchist.
 
Thrilla said:
libertarianism categorically rejects slavery... and yet here are the contemporary liberals arguing about why that's wrong :lol:
politics never ceases to amaze me.
Click to expand...

But yet it seems as regular as night following day that on these sites when we discuss actual real honest to goodness American slavery in practice, we find that self indentified libertarians find a way to loudly advocate for the South and defend their actions of a century and a half ago?
 
Thrilla said:
self ownership is the basis for all individual rights.... but yes, I do agree that it's "extremist" to believe in such things nowadays, and i'm completely unsurprised you reject self ownership as valid and proper.


you are vastly more authoritarian and statist than I, your arguments bear that out time and time again... and no, i'm not an anarchist. I can, however, be described as a minarchist.
Click to expand...

Its nonsense pure and simple. You own you. What garbage. When did you buy you? Do you have a deed? Who did you buy you from? What was the sale price? Can you sell you to someone else?

Nobody owns you including you. You are a person who was born. You are not property.

Is this so hard to understand? :roll:

On second thought, don't answer that part. ;)

As to who is more statist or authoritarian, its like being pregnant. Either you are or you are not. You support a state as necessary. I do also. You accept the authority of a state in certain matters. I do too.

Please do not try to pretend that you are the only virgin in the whorehouse.
 
haymarket said:
This whole idea of "self ownership" is merely semantic gymnastics being employed by ideological extremists to further an extremist agenda. It is nonsense as I previously pointed out.
Click to expand...
Brilliant. You oppose slavery, yet reject the only moral argument against it. You never disappoint.
 
haymarket said:
Its nonsense pure and simple. You own you. What garbage. When did you buy you? Do you have a deed? Who did you buy you from? What was the sale price? Can you sell you to someone else?

Nobody owns you including you. You are a person who was born. You are not property.

Is this so hard to understand? :roll:

On second thought, don't answer that part. ;)

As to who is more statist or authoritarian, its like being pregnant. Either you are or you are not. You support a state as necessary. I do also. You accept the authority of a state in certain matters. I do too.

Please do not try to pretend that you are the only virgin in the whorehouse.
Click to expand...

as I said, I'm unsurprised you see self-ownership as nonsense... but I don't mind that you do, I'm just glad that you are in the severe minority and have been throughout American history.

you might not own yourself, but I claim supreme sovereignty over my body, my thoughts, my choices, and my actions...... simply put.. I am mine,I am not yours.
I do, however, contract or consent to sanctions imposed upon my sovereignty in differing cases , such as when I violate another persons rights.


and no, it's not like being pregnant.. that's asinine.
there is a whole world in between anarchy and totalitarianism...you and me are not the same.

I support the state, in limited and specific capacities, as desirable.. not necessary.
 
heh The I own myself theory again...sorry you dont own yourself and you never have. You own little pieces that your ALLOWED to own. You were never allowed to do whatever you wanted to do anywhere in history. Theres been laws, duties, taxs and tithing on you and what you own since the beginning of our republic.
Libertarians Thank God are the minority and leaders like the two Pauls are considered nuts by most americans standards approx 90% The kid is even more intensely insane than his father.
Libertarians few very good ideas and ideals are overridden their so many extemes. America will always reject them in total...little pieces will continue to be embraced.
Sorry Libertarians this isnt pre revolution where you can go into the wilderness and live all by yourself and do whatever you choose to do...Society has gotten crowded there is no place to go for solitude except maybe your bathroom, your just going to have to keep on sharing yourself and what you have, just like you've always done and you parents and grandparents before you had to do...
 
haymarket said:
But yet it seems as regular as night following day that on these sites when we discuss actual real honest to goodness American slavery in practice, we find that self indentified libertarians find a way to loudly advocate for the South and defend their actions of a century and a half ago?
Click to expand...
I rarely, if ever, see a libertarian defending slavery... slavery ,again,is categorically rejected by libertarianism... I do not condone slavery whatsoever, it is only shadowed ,in being repugnant, by murder.

I do, however, find it common for libertarians to defend the south's decision and right to secede....i'm one of them myself.

some are able to separate the issues of secession and slavery.. others, not so much.
 
lpast said:
heh The I own myself theory again...sorry you dont own yourself and you never have. You own little pieces that your ALLOWED to own. You were never allowed to do whatever you wanted to do anywhere in history. Theres been laws, duties, taxs and tithing on you and what you own since the beginning of our republic.
Libertarians Thank God are the minority and leaders like the two Pauls are considered nuts by most americans standards approx 90% The kid is even more intensely insane than his father.
Libertarians few very good ideas and ideals are overridden their so many extemes. America will always reject them in total...little pieces will continue to be embraced.
Sorry Libertarians this isnt pre revolution where you can go into the wilderness and live all by yourself and do whatever you choose to do...Society has gotten crowded there is no place to go for solitude except maybe your bathroom, your just going to have to keep on sharing yourself and what you have, just like you've always done and you parents and grandparents before you had to do...
Click to expand...

so you too reject self ownership?... interesting.

2 professional agents of the state rejecting self ownership.. whodathunk it :lol:

I wonder if y'all realize that by rejecting the concept of self ownership, you necessarily reject the concept of the Social Contract... ponder that for a moment.


what "extremes" are you talking about in terms of libertarians?
 
Thrilla said:
I rarely, if ever, see a libertarian defending slavery... slavery ,again,is categorically rejected by libertarianism... I do not condone slavery whatsoever, it is only shadowed ,in being repugnant, by murder.

I do, however, find it common for libertarians to defend the south's decision and right to secede....i'm one of them myself.

some are able to separate the issues of secession and slavery.. others, not so much.
Click to expand...


Doesnt matter what anyone believes...or is able to separate...slavery nor secession isnt happening in our lifetime and way beyond.
Libertarians expend way to much energy and time on aint never gonna happen things...all wishful thinking
 
lpast said:
heh The I own myself theory again...sorry you dont own yourself and you never have. You own little pieces that your ALLOWED to own. You were never allowed to do whatever you wanted to do anywhere in history. Theres been laws, duties, taxs and tithing on you and what you own since the beginning of our republic.
Libertarians Thank God are the minority and leaders like the two Pauls are considered nuts by most americans standards approx 90% The kid is even more intensely insane than his father.
Libertarians few very good ideas and ideals are overridden their so many extemes. America will always reject them in total...little pieces will continue to be embraced.
Sorry Libertarians this isnt pre revolution where you can go into the wilderness and live all by yourself and do whatever you choose to do...Society has gotten crowded there is no place to go for solitude except maybe your bathroom, your just going to have to keep on sharing yourself and what you have, just like you've always done and you parents and grandparents before you had to do...
Click to expand...
You just dont understand the concept of self-ownership. Like it or not, it is the very basis for concepts like rights and justice. If you dont have a claim (own yourself) on your own body and mind, you are abdicating it to whoever has the power to take it from you. You want the state to own you. So be it. But you have no authority to own me.
 
lpast said:
Doesnt matter what anyone believes...or is able to separate...slavery nor secession isnt happening in our lifetime and way beyond.
Libertarians expend way to much energy and time on aint never gonna happen things...all wishful thinking
Click to expand...
People concerned with liberty spend their time defending the principles of liberty against those who wish to deprive them of it.
 
lpast said:
Doesnt matter what anyone believes...or is able to separate...slavery nor secession isnt happening in our lifetime and way beyond.
Libertarians expend way to much energy and time on aint never gonna happen things...all wishful thinking
Click to expand...


stating that slavery ( the chattel variety) and secession will never occur again is a matter of wishful thinking in itself.

it's an exercise in debate dude.. it's an interesting topic for many.. and it's part of our history... it's good to explore the issues.
any time you can learn something, it's not a waste of time or energy.
 
Hatuey said:
How can Lincoln be anti-Libertarian? The man single handedly ended slavery as an institution in the US. Not sure how you can argue somebody is anti-Libertarian when they removed the very antithesis to Libertarianism from the US landscape.
Click to expand...

The extreme libertarian right would consider Lincoln a radical socialist because he dared interfere with the rights of the powerful to exploit others. If vulgar, far-right libertarianism is the model, then every President who ever used the power of federal government to change something would be a good candidate.
 
Fletch said:
Brilliant. You oppose slavery, yet reject the only moral argument against it. You never disappoint.
Click to expand...

The moral argument against slavery is that people are not property. Does that somehow escape you?
 
Thrilla said:
as I said, I'm unsurprised you see self-ownership as nonsense... but I don't mind that you do, I'm just glad that you are in the severe minority and have been throughout American history.
Click to expand...

What utter nonsense. Could you please present some objective survey data in which a majority of the US population voices affirmative support for the question

DO YOU OWN YOURSELF?
 
Thrilla said:
the entertainment value alone is worth it...:lol:
Click to expand...

I certainly wish I could say the same about libertarians. Sadly, by the time you learn the new language and all the new terms and new meanings to the old terms, its not much fun at all.

This nonsense about "owning yourself" is a perfect illustration of the Alice In Wonderland world right libertarians live in,
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom