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Most anti-libertarian Presidents

Most anti-libertarian President?

  • Abraham Lincoln

    Votes: 10 25.6%
  • Woodrow Wilson

    Votes: 4 10.3%
  • Franklin Roosevelt

    Votes: 14 35.9%
  • Theodore Roosevelt

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lyndon Johnson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • George W. Bush

    Votes: 3 7.7%
  • Richard Nixon

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • Herbert Hoover

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 7.7%

  • Total voters
    39
Lincoln was my choice. Suspension of habeas corpus was a huge overreach of his powers, but this was the last of a large string of abuses, I don't think the north's hand was "forced" any more than the south's was. Slavery was a horrid institution that needed to be ended, that said as was pointed out it was a consequence of Lincoln's war against secession, not slavery. The south had a severe contention prior to the slavery issue due to unfair tariffs of southern goods, a legitimate commerce clause gripe and especially heated due to european interests getting favorable trade rates. Lincoln's worst abuse though was making secession without violence impossible, this would set the table for the federal government to eventually centralize to it's current point, for that reason alone he is the father of government overreach.

Good job on the tariffs, was waiting for someone to talk about that. You could also talk about how the war was waged, mainly in the south, Shermans March. What were government responses to the riots in northern states? Drafts are so libertarian huh guys? Shutting down newspapers? Nationalizing railroads?
 
I don't believe he ended the Depressiom, rather he extended it. Also, he interned 40,000 Japanese Americans.
Damn, forgot about the Japanese camps. **** him too, then.

He has some problems to be sure, but his foreign policy was barely interventionist in comparison with most in the century, and he did cut taxes among other things. I don't think he qualifies among the worst, unless your main thing is drugs.
I simply cannot see anything good about Reagan. Sure, he cut taxes, that's pretty much it. Iran Contra was a heinous criminal act. Not only did we sell arms to a sworn enemy with a godawful human rights record, we funded a bloody coup that resulted in what can only be called a massacre. On top of all that, a great deal of crack-cocaine in the US can be attributed to the CIA-Contra alliance. Not only was this hypocritical of Reagan, considering his war on drugs, it killed people. Lot's of people, not just directly through supporting the Contra wars, but through the heightened gang violence caused by the rise of drugs brought into the US. In my mind, Reagan is the worst kind of villain.

I wanted to do a read through before voting because many of the choices have their abuses and it was a tough call.
It is. My choice of Reagan is more of a personal thing, though. I hate him both as a man, and an elected official.

Lincoln was my choice. Suspension of habeas corpus was a huge overreach of his powers, but this was the last of a large string of abuses, I don't think the north's hand was "forced" any more than the south's was. Slavery was a horrid institution that needed to be ended, that said as was pointed out it was a consequence of Lincoln's war against secession, not slavery. The south had a severe contention prior to the slavery issue due to unfair tariffs of southern goods, a legitimate commerce clause gripe and especially heated due to european interests getting favorable trade rates. Lincoln's worst abuse though was making secession without violence impossible, this would set the table for the federal government to eventually centralize to it's current point, for that reason alone he is the father of government overreach.
I don't attribute slavery as the cause of the war by any means, but the CSA is not blameless. They ****ed themselves when they laid siege to FT Sumter. Lincoln had no choice but to engage them militarily after that.

Lied us into Vietnam, civil rights legislation was not done for noble purposes though the outcome was a good one, some social policies weight against all citizens for some, typical panderer. No huge losses of liberty but some programs have become rotten from within and are now huge monetary consumers, his tenure didn't do too much against liberty but the seeds are blossoming into rotten fruit.
JFK really set the stage for Vietnam, and to be fair, a lot of those programs are rotten because they didn't go away once they were no longer needed because the people in charge of then have nothing else. LBJ was more of a nobody that really didn't do anything worthwhile. Kinda like Ford. Not really a huge asshole, but not worth mention for anything. Just "meh" at best.

That is new to me, never heard it but troubling if true.
The protestors were called the Bonus Army.

To be fair to Mr. Reagan's legacy, most of the gun control legislation was hidden in important bills by congress. Afghanistan was due to the cold war, I don't blame anyone for trying to embarass an enemy but it did come back to bite us in the ass later. Iran/Contra I give a break for due to the nature of the program, we were trying to safely negotiate a hostage release without violence, probably should have done things differently.
I have to disagree for reasons I've already stated. He caused some serious, and irreparable damages.
 
Just to make the point, in Iran/Contra, it was the Contra aspect that was the problem, not the Iran part so much. Negotiating with Iran was perfectly legal as best I understand. Giving money to terrorists in Central America after congress said no, not so legal.
I'm not arguing pro, just stating there at least was a goal to it....albeit heavily ill advised.
 
Just to make the point, in Iran/Contra, it was the Contra aspect that was the problem, not the Iran part so much. Negotiating with Iran was perfectly legal as best I understand. Giving money to terrorists in Central America after congress said no, not so legal.

a classic game of tit for tat between congress held by one party and the presidency held by another. Unclear constitutional areas in some parts.
 
Thomas Jefferson. Libertarians want to form a Hamiltonian elite of self-indulgent, upper-class, paper-empowered greedhead parasites.

Ummm... Hamiltonians are fairly opposite to libertarianism.
 
Damn, forgot about the Japanese camps. **** him too, then.


I simply cannot see anything good about Reagan. Sure, he cut taxes, that's pretty much it. Iran Contra was a heinous criminal act. Not only did we sell arms to a sworn enemy with a godawful human rights record, we funded a bloody coup that resulted in what can only be called a massacre. On top of all that, a great deal of crack-cocaine in the US can be attributed to the CIA-Contra alliance. Not only was this hypocritical of Reagan, considering his war on drugs, it killed people. Lot's of people, not just directly through supporting the Contra wars, but through the heightened gang violence caused by the rise of drugs brought into the US. In my mind, Reagan is the worst kind of villain.

It is. My choice of Reagan is more of a personal thing, though. I hate him both as a man, and an elected official.


I don't attribute slavery as the cause of the war by any means, but the CSA is not blameless. They ****ed themselves when they laid siege to FT Sumter. Lincoln had no choice but to engage them militarily after that.

JFK really set the stage for Vietnam, and to be fair, a lot of those programs are rotten because they didn't go away once they were no longer needed because the people in charge of then have nothing else. LBJ was more of a nobody that really didn't do anything worthwhile. Kinda like Ford. Not really a huge asshole, but not worth mention for anything. Just "meh" at best.


The protestors were called the Bonus Army.


I have to disagree for reasons I've already stated. He caused some serious, and irreparable damages.
Being an opinion poll I can respect all of the above. The Ft. Sumter issue was one of border issues, while it was a federal fort, it could be claimed as a tresspass after the secession, the CSA should have paid out for the north to leave, but then again with the tariff issue politically that was never gonna happen. Politicians are a stubborn and idiotic bunch after all.
 
As far as the most ant-libertarian President... toss up between FDR and Lincoln. Jackson and J. Adams would be close, too.
 
As far as the most ant-libertarian President... toss up between FDR and Lincoln. Jackson and J. Adams would be close, too.
FDR took the layup in my opinion. Without the secession option after the civil war the states pretty much became dependent on federal law, FDR realized he was holding office at a time that he could federalize powers with the right push. For that very reason I put Lincoln in the most anti-libertarian catagory, but it is close.
 
Being an opinion poll I can respect all of the above. The Ft. Sumter issue was one of border issues, while it was a federal fort, it could be claimed as a tresspass after the secession, the CSA should have paid out for the north to leave, but then again with the tariff issue politically that was never gonna happen. Politicians are a stubborn and idiotic bunch after all.

The were definitely alternatives to war, but the feds weren't going to back down, and the CSA was pissed, and rightfully so. They weren't getting a fair shake, and when a populace that's already stirred up and frustrated gets pissed, reason is the first thing to go.

Neither the Union, or the CSA was in the right on any of it.
 
Because of the states rights issue. I believe, however, that he fully redeemed himself by issuing Emancipation, and ending slavery.
For cheap, obedient labor to replace disgruntled Whites in sweatshops--the Libertarian ideal of letting those on top make as much as they can trap others into working for, as long as they themselves aren't forced by those they exclude from having liberty. Emancipation parallels the mixed politics of today's illegal-alien discussion, with its Leftist multiculturalism being a smokescreen for the Libertarian idea of hiring whomever they want.
 
Ummm... Hamiltonians are fairly opposite to libertarianism.
I mean what Libertarians are in reality, not its ideological cover story. These ideological preachings pacify people who think only in idealistic fuzziness, much like Communism and Christianity.
 
For cheap, obedient labor to replace disgruntled Whites in sweatshops--the Libertarian ideal of letting those on top make as much as they can trap others into working for, as long as they themselves aren't forced by those they exclude from having liberty. Emancipation parallels the mixed politics of today's illegal-alien discussion, with its Leftist multiculturalism being a smokescreen for the Libertarian idea of hiring whomever they want.

omfg, give a rest already. Nobody is impressed with your overinflated pseudo-rage.
 
The were definitely alternatives to war, but the feds weren't going to back down, and the CSA was pissed, and rightfully so. They weren't getting a fair shake, and when a populace that's already stirred up and frustrated gets pissed, reason is the first thing to go.

Neither the Union, or the CSA was in the right on any of it.
The South had slavery, the North had sweatshops. If you are concerned about class oppression, which Libertarians are in denial about, the North had no moral superiority. In fact, its leaders were morally inferior by not doing anything about their own kind of slavery. Instead, they launched a hypocritical crusade on the South. Also, Lincoln's policy of the Chickenhawk rich being able to buy their way out of the draft would have appealed to our real-life Libertarians.
 
The South had slavery, the North had sweatshops. If you are concerned about class oppression, which Libertarians are in denial about, the North had no moral superiority.
I'm actually not, because the poor have the ability to not be poor in America. This isn't 19th century Russia, we don't have a caste system. You can be whatever the hell you want, as long as you actually try.

In fact, its leaders were morally inferior by not doing anything about their own kind of slavery. Instead, they launched a hypocritical crusade on the South. Also, Lincoln's policy of the Chickenhawk rich being able to buy their way out of the draft would have appealed to our real-life Libertarians.
The Civil War wasn't fought over labor, it was fought to prevent a split in the Federal Union. Put down the Marx, and pick up a real book. Preferably, a history book. Hell, I'll give you mine when the semester is up, if you want it.
 
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I mean what Libertarians are in reality, not its ideological cover story. These ideological preachings pacify people who think only in idealistic fuzziness, much like Communism and Christianity.

you mean what you say they are vs what they say they are.
 
I'm gonna go with FDR.
 
For cheap, obedient labor to replace disgruntled Whites in sweatshops--the Libertarian ideal of letting those on top make as much as they can trap others into working for, as long as they themselves aren't forced by those they exclude from having liberty. Emancipation parallels the mixed politics of today's illegal-alien discussion, with its Leftist multiculturalism being a smokescreen for the Libertarian idea of hiring whomever they want.

Are people in sweatshops better off or are they worse off? That is the fundamental question... They made the a rational choice to work there right? Oh wait they were forced through circumstance, I imagine it is better to not work there and starve.

Libertarians are against slavery, because of individual rights and property rights. You own yourself so obviously no one can own you.
 
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Libertarians are against slavery, because of individual rights and property rights. You own yourself so obviously no one can own you.

Obviously that is not true. Hundreds of millions of people have been owned by other people throughout world history.

What does that mean "you own yourself"?
 
Are people in sweatshops better off or are they worse off? That is the fundamental question... They made the a rational choice to work there right? Oh wait they were forced through circumstance, I imagine it is better to not work there and starve.

Libertarians are against slavery, because of individual rights and property rights. You own yourself so obviously no one can own you.
If you own a man's work, you own the man. Libertarians push this illusion about choice because they want to hide from themselves the reality that it's all about power.
 
I never said slavery doesnt, or never did exist. Reread the first four words.

Now how do you own yourself? This article will help sum it up for you.

The Economics of Self-Ownership - Michael Rozeff - Mises Daily

Which "first four words"

Libertarians are against slavery, because of individual rights and property rights. You own yourself so obviously no one can own you.

I could not care less if libertarians are for or against anything. What they believe or do not believe is irrelevant.

Here is what you said

You own yourself so obviously no one can own you.

What utter poppcock. Own yourself? Nonsense. Obviously people were owned and plenty of them. Tell them how they owned themselves so thus nobody could have owned them.

You talk nonsense. Reality speaks louder than all the libertarians combined.

This is merely another example of some libertarian whacko coming up with an axiom that is intended to justify knockignng down all the dominoes that he intends to place after it.

As in , of course you own yourself, so thus... blah blah blah blah blah.

To have self-ownership is to be able to make one's own choices in all spheres of one's life. Self-ownership amounts to an undiluted right to one's life and the liberty to pursue one's happiness. If one has complete self-ownership, then one is not being aggressed upon. And if one (or one's property) is not being aggressed upon, then one is free to pursue one's own interests and one owns oneself. Therefore, as Rothbard says, the non-aggression axiom is equivalent to the self-ownership axiom.

You do NOT get to make choices in all spheres of life as long as you live in a society with others. Some of those choices are made for you by others. That is the way our society works. That is the way our government works. And if you refuse to abide by that and it means using aggression upon you- cover up your ass because its gonna get aggressed upon. If you don't like that arrangement, you have the perfect right to withdraw from it and go elsewhere just like the Puritans did in the 1600's.

I do imagine this is the sort of nonsense that keeps college sophomores who have drunk too much red bull up at 3 am. Everybody else - with the noted exception of libertarians - can just flush it where it belongs.
 
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