View Poll Results: Most anti-libertarian President?

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  • Abraham Lincoln

    10 18.18%
  • Woodrow Wilson

    6 10.91%
  • Franklin Roosevelt

    20 36.36%
  • Theodore Roosevelt

    0 0%
  • Lyndon Johnson

    1 1.82%
  • George W. Bush

    7 12.73%
  • Richard Nixon

    2 3.64%
  • Herbert Hoover

    2 3.64%
  • Barack Obama

    4 7.27%
  • Other

    3 5.45%
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Thread: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

  1. #81
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post

    That is a pretty sweeping statement that denies any person can own another person. And that is the definition of slavery.

    So which is it? If you admit the existence of slavery, that somebody can indeed own you and that renders your precious libertarian axiom to have less utilitarian value than a fifty pound bag of garden manure.

    Perhaps if you call me some more third grade level names like you did in your recent post, the wisdom may come to you?
    I called you a buffoon due the fact that you were acting ludicrous, in which seemed like an attempt to bait me.

    Let me try to simplify it.

    I tell someone they cant climb over the fence, the other person ask why, i respond saying its trespassing. Now in your argument your saying you can, well obviously it can and does happen, in the same sense as slavery exist. My belief is that another person cant own a person(becauses its morally wrong), in the same way as some cant trespass, or cant rob a bank. When you watch a movie and a character tells another character you cant kill them, well yea this is, of course, untrue. Still its a moral belief, doesnt me it cant happen. Ill make sure i choose the right words around you next time though mr. sheep.

  2. #82
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The moral argument against slavery is that people are not property. Does that somehow escape you?
    It hasnt escaped me at all. You claim people are not property. Do you derive that from some other principles or did you pull that out of your rump?

  3. #83
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyBurns View Post
    I called you a buffoon due the fact that you were acting ludicrous, in which seemed like an attempt to bait me.

    Let me try to simplify it.

    I tell someone they cant climb over the fence, the other person ask why, i respond saying its trespassing. Now in your argument your saying you can, well obviously it can and does happen, in the same sense as slavery exist. My belief is that another person cant own a person(becauses its morally wrong), in the same way as some cant trespass, or cant rob a bank. When you watch a movie and a character tells another character you cant kill them, well yea this is, of course, untrue. Still its a moral belief, doesnt me it cant happen. Ill make sure i choose the right words around you next time though mr. sheep.
    Stuff and nonsense.

    You make statements then wilt and wither from them when shown to be absurd.

    You call names because you were caught saying ridiculous stuff and shown up on it.
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    It hasnt escaped me at all. You claim people are not property. Do you derive that from some other principles or did you pull that out of your rump?
    Principles? I do not know what those are. Perhaps you can explain them to me? I simply go by reality of the world we live in.
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Did I miss the part where you connected those dots on two different pages of two different coloring books?
    I didn't connect the dots for you... i'm seeing if you are able to, though.

  6. #86
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Yup, Id love to see some factual data to back up that claim.
    None of us will see factual data on that claim. That is always the way it is with right libertarians. They make sweeping statements about the world and it is founded upon nothing more than their own self imposed belief system..... and they only believe that because they have made a choice to believe it.

    The Mad Hatter in Wonderland made as much sense..... perhaps more.
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by AreteCourage View Post
    I see this conversation has broken down into talks of slavery and ownership of human beings...not exactly where I saw this going, but when you mention Lincoln...I suppose it is an inevitability.

    I am going with the easy choice of FDR. He grew government to proportions that it was never meant to go. The New Deal was a big bureaucratic bust. World War II saved FDR's legacy as that is what people remember most about him along with being elected to four terms.

    As far as the slavery conversation goes...I think we can all agree that it was wrong. Yes?

    Okay..

    As far a self-ownership goes...one should have the right to do to themselves as they wish as long as it doesn't infringe on other people. The second you start infringing on the rights of another person is when you are breaking a law. You cannot "own" yourself outright....matter of fact; I don't even like to term it in that way. Individuals don't own themselves, but have rights to themselves.
    ownership is simply a claim to sovereignty... so yes, you can, and do, own yourself... you have supreme sovereignty over your person.
    self ownership is the basis on which all individual rights are derived.

    you might not like the terms utilized, but you do believe in self ownership... and that's good enough fer me

  8. #88
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by AreteCourage View Post
    I see this conversation has broken down into talks of slavery and ownership of human beings...not exactly where I saw this going, but when you mention Lincoln...I suppose it is an inevitability.

    I am going with the easy choice of FDR. He grew government to proportions that it was never meant to go. The New Deal was a big bureaucratic bust. World War II saved FDR's legacy as that is what people remember most about him along with being elected to four terms.

    As far as the slavery conversation goes...I think we can all agree that it was wrong. Yes?

    Okay..

    As far a self-ownership goes...one should have the right to do to themselves as they wish as long as it doesn't infringe on other people. The second you start infringing on the rights of another person is when you are breaking a law. You cannot "own" yourself outright....matter of fact; I don't even like to term it in that way. Individuals don't own themselves, but have rights to themselves.
    FDR also grew the military in a ay we hoped it'd never go either; but the rumor at the time was: we kinda had to in order to save the country. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, he was trying to save the country too: at least, that was the rumor. By the time FDR took the oath of office the United States of America; and the world, had collapsed, so extreme conditions; as shown by my examples, usually call for extreme measures. The inroads that were made through FDR's leadership produced a country with the highest GDP and highest standard of living in the world: you should be thanking him for his leadership in making it possible for you to call yourself a Libertarian . . . .

    Ronald Reagan on the other hand began the beginning of the end of liberty.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  9. #89
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    ownership is simply a claim to sovereignty... so yes, you can, and do, own yourself... you have supreme sovereignty over your person.
    self ownership is the basis on which all individual rights are derived.

    you might not like the terms utilized, but you do believe in self ownership... and that's good enough fer me
    self ownership ..... sovereignity ...... supreme sovereignity .....

    WOW!!!!

    Such high and mighty high fallutin' talk from somebody who claims tht the majority agrees with them. Somehow I suspect that if you go into any workingman's bar near any factory or warehouse in the USA and start spouting such stuff, you will soon find yourself tossed out the back door with the trash and other useless garbage.
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  10. #90
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    The extreme libertarian right would consider Lincoln a radical socialist because he dared interfere with the rights of the powerful to exploit others. If vulgar, far-right libertarianism is the model, then every President who ever used the power of federal government to change something would be a good candidate.
    Diminishing state rights, centralizing federal government, political imprisonment, nationalization of rail roads, starting a draft, shutting down printing presses, murdering protesters, destruction of the south(shermans march), and thats only the stuff i can think of off the top of my head.

    No libertarian says its bad he freed slaves, on the contrary, thats the ONLY good thing he did.

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