View Poll Results: Most anti-libertarian President?

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  • Abraham Lincoln

    10 18.18%
  • Woodrow Wilson

    6 10.91%
  • Franklin Roosevelt

    20 36.36%
  • Theodore Roosevelt

    0 0%
  • Lyndon Johnson

    1 1.82%
  • George W. Bush

    7 12.73%
  • Richard Nixon

    2 3.64%
  • Herbert Hoover

    2 3.64%
  • Barack Obama

    4 7.27%
  • Other

    3 5.45%
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Thread: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

  1. #21
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    At the top.
    Then it appears that I crashed this party early. To answer the question, it's pretty tough.

    Lincoln was obviously against the States right to secession, even if the people of the separatist states felt they were being harmed by the federal union. However, he did extend The Peoples rights to "negroes". I don't think he's all that bad, because the CSA did a lot to force his hand.

    Wilson was against individual rights, via his support for Jim Crow laws, and opposition to womens suffrage. On top of that, he pretty much forced us into the global arena by supporting the First World War. An act that has lead to very anti-Libertarian treaties that we are Constitutionally bound to uphold. He's on the really bad list for Libertarian principals, and I don't believe he has many redeeming qualities as a president, or even a person to be frank.

    FDR is a fun one, since he was all about big, BIGGER, and BIGGEST government. Huge bureaucrat, and the New Deal was a government spending spree, but he did pull us out of the depression, and he instituted the Indian New Deal, which was a pretty nice move towards human rights, so I can't hate the guy. He had his heart in the right place, and that was with the People. I have to give him credit for that.

    I can't say anything bad about TR as a person, nor would I simply because I think he was one of the most bad ass presidents we've ever had, but his policies were not Libertarian in the least. One thing he was for, though: Women's suffrage, a Peoples right. I don't consider him to be bad at all, since his policies weren't really anti-libertarian. He just wasn't Libertarian.

    LBJ wasn't too bad, either. He instituted the voters rights act, which prohibited voter discrimination, his civil rights act outlawed segregation, he vehemently went after the KKK and forced them to cut the ****, like murdering blacks, interracial couples, and civil rights activists. I can see a split on that from a Libertarian point of view, but as I see it, he was enforcing the Peoples rights to be free from tyranny imposed upon them in the south. Only big "anti-libertarian" thing I'm aware of is his Medicaid program, and the Gun Control Act of 1968.

    I'm not going to address W Bush or Obama, because they're too obvious. Neither has a Libertarian bone in their body, and I don't consider either of them to be the worst.

    Nixon, ole tricky Dick, another one of the bad ones. Although "New Federalism" was a good idea, it never happened. He initiated the war on drugs, he also inflicted wage and price controls, inflation still happened, which resulted in all kinds of problems. He was also a bureaucrat who enforced regulatory policies. The only thing he did right, from a Libertarian stand, was endorse the Equal Rights Amendment, and integrate blacks into schools, though, both were not without controversy, concerning his "methods". He basically half-assed it to try and salvage his approval rating.

    Herbert Hoover cannot be mentioned separate of the Revenue Act of 1932. On top of that, he used military forces led by Douglass MacArthur to stamp out a protest. That protest was comprised of WWI vets demanding that they be given what was promised to them by the government. So he's at the top of the list in my book.

    I also have to mention, and I'm actually surprised that you left him out, is Ronald Reagan. This guy was pretty bad, gun control, Iran-Contra affair, turning the Russo-Afghan war into yet another American proxy, war on drugs, he violated every Libertarian principal in the book, and that's why I vote other.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    How can Lincoln be anti-Libertarian? The man single handedly ended slavery as an institution in the US. Not sure how you can argue somebody is anti-Libertarian when they removed the very antithesis to Libertarianism from the US landscape.
    Because of the states rights issue. I believe, however, that he fully redeemed himself by issuing Emancipation, and ending slavery.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    FDR is a fun one, since he was all about big, BIGGER, and BIGGEST government. Huge bureaucrat, and the New Deal was a government spending spree, but he did pull us out of the depression, and he instituted the Indian New Deal, which was a pretty nice move towards human rights, so I can't hate the guy. He had his heart in the right place, and that was with the People. I have to give him credit for that.
    I don't believe he ended the Depressiom, rather he extended it. Also, he interned 40,000 Japanese Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    I also have to mention, and I'm actually surprised that you left him out, is Ronald Reagan. This guy was pretty bad, gun control, Iran-Contra affair, turning the Russo-Afghan war into yet another American proxy, war on drugs, he violated every Libertarian principal in the book, and that's why I vote other.
    He has some problems to be sure, but his foreign policy was barely interventionist in comparison with most in the century, and he did cut taxes among other things. I don't think he qualifies among the worst, unless your main thing is drugs.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

  4. #24
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Then it appears that I crashed this party early. To answer the question, it's pretty tough.
    I wanted to do a read through before voting because many of the choices have their abuses and it was a tough call.

    Lincoln was obviously against the States right to secession, even if the people of the separatist states felt they were being harmed by the federal union. However, he did extend The Peoples rights to "negroes". I don't think he's all that bad, because the CSA did a lot to force his hand.
    Lincoln was my choice. Suspension of habeas corpus was a huge overreach of his powers, but this was the last of a large string of abuses, I don't think the north's hand was "forced" any more than the south's was. Slavery was a horrid institution that needed to be ended, that said as was pointed out it was a consequence of Lincoln's war against secession, not slavery. The south had a severe contention prior to the slavery issue due to unfair tariffs of southern goods, a legitimate commerce clause gripe and especially heated due to european interests getting favorable trade rates. Lincoln's worst abuse though was making secession without violence impossible, this would set the table for the federal government to eventually centralize to it's current point, for that reason alone he is the father of government overreach.

    Wilson was against individual rights, via his support for Jim Crow laws, and opposition to womens suffrage. On top of that, he pretty much forced us into the global arena by supporting the First World War. An act that has lead to very anti-Libertarian treaties that we are Constitutionally bound to uphold. He's on the really bad list for Libertarian principals, and I don't believe he has many redeeming qualities as a president, or even a person to be frank.
    All that, and the institution of the permanent income tax. Nothing more anti-liberty than taking your money simply for earning it.

    FDR is a fun one, since he was all about big, BIGGER, and BIGGEST government. Huge bureaucrat, and the New Deal was a government spending spree, but he did pull us out of the depression, and he instituted the Indian New Deal, which was a pretty nice move towards human rights, so I can't hate the guy. He had his heart in the right place, and that was with the People. I have to give him credit for that.
    Massive anti-libertarian, largest government expansion in U.S. history up to that time, set the table for the current expansionist era.

    I can't say anything bad about TR as a person, nor would I simply because I think he was one of the most bad ass presidents we've ever had, but his policies were not Libertarian in the least. One thing he was for, though: Women's suffrage, a Peoples right. I don't consider him to be bad at all, since his policies weren't really anti-libertarian. He just wasn't Libertarian.
    In restrospect, a few of his stances were troubling but was an overall good president. National parks were ill advised but not that big of a deal, huge conservationist, anti-trust legislation is a 50/50.

    LBJ wasn't too bad, either. He instituted the voters rights act, which prohibited voter discrimination, his civil rights act outlawed segregation, he vehemently went after the KKK and forced them to cut the ****, like murdering blacks, interracial couples, and civil rights activists. I can see a split on that from a Libertarian point of view, but as I see it, he was enforcing the Peoples rights to be free from tyranny imposed upon them in the south. Only big "anti-libertarian" thing I'm aware of is his Medicaid program, and the Gun Control Act of 1968.
    Lied us into Vietnam, civil rights legislation was not done for noble purposes though the outcome was a good one, some social policies weight against all citizens for some, typical panderer. No huge losses of liberty but some programs have become rotten from within and are now huge monetary consumers, his tenure didn't do too much against liberty but the seeds are blossoming into rotten fruit.

    I'm not going to address W Bush or Obama, because they're too obvious. Neither has a Libertarian bone in their body, and I don't consider either of them to be the worst.
    Agreed.

    Nixon, ole tricky Dick, another one of the bad ones. Although "New Federalism" was a good idea, it never happened. He initiated the war on drugs, he also inflicted wage and price controls, inflation still happened, which resulted in all kinds of problems. He was also a bureaucrat who enforced regulatory policies. The only thing he did right, from a Libertarian stand, was endorse the Equal Rights Amendment, and integrate blacks into schools, though, both were not without controversy, concerning his "methods". He basically half-assed it to try and salvage his approval rating.
    Created the EPA under his tenure, unforgiveable.

    Herbert Hoover cannot be mentioned separate of the Revenue Act of 1932. On top of that, he used military forces led by Douglass MacArthur to stamp out a protest. That protest was comprised of WWI vets demanding that they be given what was promised to them by the government. So he's at the top of the list in my book.
    That is new to me, never heard it but troubling if true.

    I also have to mention, and I'm actually surprised that you left him out, is Ronald Reagan. This guy was pretty bad, gun control, Iran-Contra affair, turning the Russo-Afghan war into yet another American proxy, war on drugs, he violated every Libertarian principal in the book, and that's why I vote other.
    To be fair to Mr. Reagan's legacy, most of the gun control legislation was hidden in important bills by congress. Afghanistan was due to the cold war, I don't blame anyone for trying to embarass an enemy but it did come back to bite us in the ass later. Iran/Contra I give a break for due to the nature of the program, we were trying to safely negotiate a hostage release without violence, probably should have done things differently.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  5. #25
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post

    To be fair to Mr. Reagan's legacy, most of the gun control legislation was hidden in important bills by congress. Afghanistan was due to the cold war, I don't blame anyone for trying to embarass an enemy but it did come back to bite us in the ass later. Iran/Contra I give a break for due to the nature of the program, we were trying to safely negotiate a hostage release without violence, probably should have done things differently.
    Just to make the point, in Iran/Contra, it was the Contra aspect that was the problem, not the Iran part so much. Negotiating with Iran was perfectly legal as best I understand. Giving money to terrorists in Central America after congress said no, not so legal.
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Lincoln was my choice. Suspension of habeas corpus was a huge overreach of his powers, but this was the last of a large string of abuses, I don't think the north's hand was "forced" any more than the south's was. Slavery was a horrid institution that needed to be ended, that said as was pointed out it was a consequence of Lincoln's war against secession, not slavery. The south had a severe contention prior to the slavery issue due to unfair tariffs of southern goods, a legitimate commerce clause gripe and especially heated due to european interests getting favorable trade rates. Lincoln's worst abuse though was making secession without violence impossible, this would set the table for the federal government to eventually centralize to it's current point, for that reason alone he is the father of government overreach.
    Good job on the tariffs, was waiting for someone to talk about that. You could also talk about how the war was waged, mainly in the south, Shermans March. What were government responses to the riots in northern states? Drafts are so libertarian huh guys? Shutting down newspapers? Nationalizing railroads?

  7. #27
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    I don't believe he ended the Depressiom, rather he extended it. Also, he interned 40,000 Japanese Americans.
    Damn, forgot about the Japanese camps. **** him too, then.

    He has some problems to be sure, but his foreign policy was barely interventionist in comparison with most in the century, and he did cut taxes among other things. I don't think he qualifies among the worst, unless your main thing is drugs.
    I simply cannot see anything good about Reagan. Sure, he cut taxes, that's pretty much it. Iran Contra was a heinous criminal act. Not only did we sell arms to a sworn enemy with a godawful human rights record, we funded a bloody coup that resulted in what can only be called a massacre. On top of all that, a great deal of crack-cocaine in the US can be attributed to the CIA-Contra alliance. Not only was this hypocritical of Reagan, considering his war on drugs, it killed people. Lot's of people, not just directly through supporting the Contra wars, but through the heightened gang violence caused by the rise of drugs brought into the US. In my mind, Reagan is the worst kind of villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I wanted to do a read through before voting because many of the choices have their abuses and it was a tough call.
    It is. My choice of Reagan is more of a personal thing, though. I hate him both as a man, and an elected official.

    Lincoln was my choice. Suspension of habeas corpus was a huge overreach of his powers, but this was the last of a large string of abuses, I don't think the north's hand was "forced" any more than the south's was. Slavery was a horrid institution that needed to be ended, that said as was pointed out it was a consequence of Lincoln's war against secession, not slavery. The south had a severe contention prior to the slavery issue due to unfair tariffs of southern goods, a legitimate commerce clause gripe and especially heated due to european interests getting favorable trade rates. Lincoln's worst abuse though was making secession without violence impossible, this would set the table for the federal government to eventually centralize to it's current point, for that reason alone he is the father of government overreach.
    I don't attribute slavery as the cause of the war by any means, but the CSA is not blameless. They ****ed themselves when they laid siege to FT Sumter. Lincoln had no choice but to engage them militarily after that.

    Lied us into Vietnam, civil rights legislation was not done for noble purposes though the outcome was a good one, some social policies weight against all citizens for some, typical panderer. No huge losses of liberty but some programs have become rotten from within and are now huge monetary consumers, his tenure didn't do too much against liberty but the seeds are blossoming into rotten fruit.
    JFK really set the stage for Vietnam, and to be fair, a lot of those programs are rotten because they didn't go away once they were no longer needed because the people in charge of then have nothing else. LBJ was more of a nobody that really didn't do anything worthwhile. Kinda like Ford. Not really a huge asshole, but not worth mention for anything. Just "meh" at best.

    That is new to me, never heard it but troubling if true.
    The protestors were called the Bonus Army.

    To be fair to Mr. Reagan's legacy, most of the gun control legislation was hidden in important bills by congress. Afghanistan was due to the cold war, I don't blame anyone for trying to embarass an enemy but it did come back to bite us in the ass later. Iran/Contra I give a break for due to the nature of the program, we were trying to safely negotiate a hostage release without violence, probably should have done things differently.
    I have to disagree for reasons I've already stated. He caused some serious, and irreparable damages.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  8. #28
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Just to make the point, in Iran/Contra, it was the Contra aspect that was the problem, not the Iran part so much. Negotiating with Iran was perfectly legal as best I understand. Giving money to terrorists in Central America after congress said no, not so legal.
    I'm not arguing pro, just stating there at least was a goal to it....albeit heavily ill advised.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Just to make the point, in Iran/Contra, it was the Contra aspect that was the problem, not the Iran part so much. Negotiating with Iran was perfectly legal as best I understand. Giving money to terrorists in Central America after congress said no, not so legal.
    a classic game of tit for tat between congress held by one party and the presidency held by another. Unclear constitutional areas in some parts.

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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    Thomas Jefferson. Libertarians want to form a Hamiltonian elite of self-indulgent, upper-class, paper-empowered greedhead parasites.
    Ummm... Hamiltonians are fairly opposite to libertarianism.
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