View Poll Results: Most anti-libertarian President?

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  • Abraham Lincoln

    10 18.18%
  • Woodrow Wilson

    6 10.91%
  • Franklin Roosevelt

    20 36.36%
  • Theodore Roosevelt

    0 0%
  • Lyndon Johnson

    1 1.82%
  • George W. Bush

    7 12.73%
  • Richard Nixon

    2 3.64%
  • Herbert Hoover

    2 3.64%
  • Barack Obama

    4 7.27%
  • Other

    3 5.45%
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Thread: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

  1. #111
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    you want evidence that the majority of Americans believe in individual rights, justice, and law?... really?
    That was not your claim and you know it. Nice try to move the goal posts to a more friendly field though.

    from Thrilla

    as I said, I'm unsurprised you see self-ownership as nonsense... but I don't mind that you do, I'm just glad that you are in the severe minority and have been throughout American history.
    So please, do present us the proof that a majority of American believe in this idea that you own yourself.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-17-12 at 08:03 PM.
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  2. #112
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by AreteCourage View Post
    As far a self-ownership goes...one should have the right to do to themselves as they wish as long as it doesn't infringe on other people. The second you start infringing on the rights of another person is when you are breaking a law. You cannot "own" yourself outright....matter of fact; I don't even like to term it in that way. Individuals don't own themselves, but have rights to themselves.
    Agreed, since others also own themselves, the second you start infringing on them, you are violating THEIR ownership rights.

    If everyone simply respects the self-ownership of their fellow man, we can all get along fine. All we have to do is establish a social order in which those who damage the property of others (including their own persons) are held responsible for their actions.

    The libertarian ethic is based upon the rules of behavior we all learned in kindergarten. Don't hit other people, and don't take their stuff. Pretty simple really.

  3. #113
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Principles? I do not know what those are. Perhaps you can explain them to me? I simply go by reality of the world we live in.
    This admission explains quite a lot. Thanks, now I understand.

  4. #114
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    If you don't get it yet..... I am NOT taking this nonsense very seriously. As with most things libertarian, what somebody has done is come up with an axiom that they thought was clever and that if they can get you to accept it then a whole long row of dominos is behind it ready to be pushed over one after the other after the other and at the end of the line is something about lessening the power of government and most likely telling us why you should not have to pay taxes.
    I understand why you consider it essential that you reject the notion that it is ethically wrong to initiate violence against your fellow man or his property. Were you to entertain such an ethical stance, you would have to change your behavior.

  5. #115
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually because you can perform you labor. Just like you can do any number of other functions with your body. Even poop. But I guess you are only able to do that because you own that too right?
    You have no grounds to claim the product of your labor if you do not first own the laborer. If you deny ownership of your own body--which you do--you dont get to magically claim the product of that body's mind or labor. It is the basis for any just law: you are accountable for your actions because you are master of your actions. Your mind and body belong to you, by right, and the actions of that mind and that body are yours accordingly. This is not complex stuff. You would think someone who spent his time 'teaching' the nations youth would not have such simple concepts fall outside his mental grasp, yet here we are. As for your childish 'poop' analogy, you do own it. If you dont believe me, drop a load on your neighbors lawn in front of witnesses and see what happens when the police arrive.

    If you don't get it yet..... I am NOT taking this nonsense very seriously. As with most things libertarian, what somebody has done is come up with an axiom that they thought was clever and that if they can get you to accept it then a whole long row of dominos is behind it ready to be pushed over one after the other after the other and at the end of the line is something about lessening the power of government and most likely telling us why you should not have to pay taxes.
    If you dont take these discussions seriously, then you are just trolling.

    Sorry, but I have been to the rodeo before and have seen the final act many many times. Its always the same. I know that the rodeo clowns you are using to sell me the rest of the show are just the prelude and pretext.
    If you have done all this before, as you claim, you learned absolutely nothing. I mean, there are legitimate arguments you can make against libertarianism, but you havent made one. Your points are pathetic and lame and dont even suggest an elementary understanding of the concept of human liberty or individual rights. Maybe the rodeo you were at was a real rodeo. And maybe the clown was you.

  6. #116
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Because its true.
    speak upon only those thing you know.... my patriotism is something you are wholly and utterly ignorant about

  7. #117
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    speak upon only those thing you know.... my patriotism is something you are wholly and utterly ignorant about
    Quite to the contrary. You are a very loud and public advocate for what would destroy the USA and its people. That is about as unpatriotic as one can get without leaving the nation to join an enemy nation.
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  8. #118
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    You have no grounds to claim the product of your labor if you do not first own the laborer. If you deny ownership of your own body--which you do--you dont get to magically claim the product of that body's mind or labor.
    Baloney.

    Your body is not owned by anybody. You fail right out of the gate with a false premise. Everything that comes after is thus bunk.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #119
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    This admission explains quite a lot. Thanks, now I understand.

    I wonder if he would let me use that as a signature?

  10. #120
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    Re: Most anti-libertarian Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Quite to the contrary. You are a very loud and public advocate for what would destroy the USA and its people. That is about as unpatriotic as one can get without leaving the nation to join an enemy nation.
    the only people destroyed by freedom are little children unable to function as adults and the would be nannies who derive their wealth and power from pandering to and controlling those little children

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