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Thread: Free Trade

  1. #1
    User NotEliTanenbaum's Avatar
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    Free Trade

    Do you agree that free trade improves productive efficiency and offers consumers better choices, and that in the long run these gains are much larger than any effects on employment?
    Last edited by NotEliTanenbaum; 06-09-12 at 02:55 AM.
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    Re: Free Trade

    I strongly disagree with that. The only reason for free trade is to outsource to a country where you can pay workers a drastically cheaper wage. 80 hour work weeks, 23-37 cents an hour, lack of worker protection laws and lack of environmental laws is why companies outsource to China.Free trade just means businesses can pocket more money at the expense of workers. This does not in any shape or form improve the product or choices. It just means it is another corner to cut and that companies without any restrictive tariffs in place can undermine actual American companies and goods.Which causes those local companies to drastically cut corners on their products in order to compete with outsourced companies,this is why some American products are crap now.All the big screen TVs at wal-mart don't mean dick if your decent paying job is outsourced and as a result you have to take a lower paying job.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer
    Li said these factories often require employees to work as many as 80 hours per week during the busy season for $75 to $110 per month, violating Chinese labor laws.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  3. #3
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by NotEliTanenbaum View Post
    Do you agree that free trade improves productive efficiency and offers consumers better choices, and that in the long run these gains are much larger than any effects on employment?
    not without similar worker safety and environmental protection measures in the nations that are part of the agreement. it's simply a race to the bottom without some regulation.

  4. #4
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I strongly disagree with that. The only reason for free trade is to outsource to a country where you can pay workers a drastically cheaper wage. 80 hour work weeks, 23-37 cents an hour, lack of worker protection laws and lack of environmental laws is why companies outsource to China.Free trade just means businesses can pocket more money at the expense of workers. This does not in any shape or form improve the product or choices. It just means it is another corner to cut and that companies without any restrictive tariffs in place can undermine actual American companies and goods.Which causes those local companies to drastically cut corners on their products in order to compete with outsourced companies,this is why some American products are crap now.All the big screen TVs at wal-mart don't mean dick if your decent paying job is outsourced and as a result you have to take a lower paying job.

    washingtonpost.com: Chinese Workers Pay for Wal-Mart's Low Prices
    Li said these factories often require employees to work as many as 80 hours per week during the busy season for $75 to $110 per month, violating Chinese labor laws.
    You use ONE example of the most repressive countries on the planet, that I agree should have moderate tarrifs applied to its goods. But think that "protectionist" argument through a little bit more. Try using a county, state or even a region within the country and apply that same "logic". The problem is that all raw materials and skilled workers (the means of production) are not evenly distributed, just as not all land is suitable for farming, and even that which is, may not be suitable for certain crops. If place A is well suited for cotton farming, but not for lumber milling, and place B is good for lumber milling yet not for cotton farming, it is best if they simply trade with each other and not try to wall out "competition" and each try to do both things for themselves.

    It is a good thing to trade instead of trying to do all things well only for yourself. Specialization increases efficiency and reduces costs; you don't grow your own food, make your own clothing or build your own home, yet you want and need all these things, so you provide a different product/service and trade that for those other things.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-09-12 at 04:56 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #5
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You use ONE example of the most repressive countries on the planet, that I agree should have moderate tarrifs applied to its goods. But think that "protectionist" argument through a little bit more. Try using a county, state or even a region within the country and apply that same "logic". The problem is that all raw materials and skilled workers (the means of production) are not evenly distributed, just as not all land is suitable for farming, and even that which is, may not be suitable for certain crops. If place A is well suited for cotton farming, but not for lumber milling, and place B is good for lumber milling yet not for cotton farming, it is best if they simply trade with each other and not try to wall out "competition" and each try to do both things for themselves.

    It is a good thing to trade instead of trying to do all things well only for yourself. Specialization increases efficiency and reduces costs; you don't grow your own food, make your own clothing or build your own home, yet you want and need all these things, so you provide a different product/service and trade that for those other things.
    Why would I apply that to states and counties? That doesn't make any sense.Were talking about free trade with other countries.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  6. #6
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You use ONE example of the most repressive countries on the planet, that I agree should have moderate tarrifs applied to its goods. But think that "protectionist" argument through a little bit more. Try using a county, state or even a region within the country and apply that same "logic". The problem is that all raw materials and skilled workers (the means of production) are not evenly distributed, just as not all land is suitable for farming, and even that which is, may not be suitable for certain crops. If place A is well suited for cotton farming, but not for lumber milling, and place B is good for lumber milling yet not for cotton farming, it is best if they simply trade with each other and not try to wall out "competition" and each try to do both things for themselves.

    It is a good thing to trade instead of trying to do all things well only for yourself. Specialization increases efficiency and reduces costs; you don't grow your own food, make your own clothing or build your own home, yet you want and need all these things, so you provide a different product/service and trade that for those other things.
    If I understand jamesrage's argument correctly it's the same as mine and it would easily stand up to your other state/region assessment because, in this country at least, the environmental, industrial, and labor laws are all the same across the nation. A factory in Alabama has to pay the same minimum wage, work with the same overtime rules, meet the same worker safety standard, and meet the same environmental goals as the same kind of factory would in Washington State. The factory in China has none of these requirements, or if they do they regularly break those rules and the Chinese government looks the other way.

    Slapping "tariffs", or whatever you want to call them, on goods from countries that don't even come close to meeting the same standards we have is not "protectionism" it's leveling the playing field. Otherwise it's exactly as Helix has stated it - a race to the bottom.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why would I apply that to states and counties? That doesn't make any sense.Were talking about free trade with other countries.
    The U.S. was started as independent states, united under a free trade and common protection agreement.
    It's been absolutely horrible for us, to trade freely between the different states, right?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by NotEliTanenbaum View Post
    Do you agree that free trade improves productive efficiency and offers consumers better choices, and that in the long run these gains are much larger than any effects on employment?
    I disagree.

    Rather than Free Trade I want Fair Trade.

    That is I think we should pursue such free trade policies with countries who allow their citizens to exercise their human rights.

    The reason why is because what tends to happen in countries that commit human rights abuses is the corporations there exploit the population to make more of a buck to the countries they are exporting to.

    So this creates a race to the bottom of which country allows their businesses to treat their workers the worst.

    So what I want is a series of tariffs on any nation that abuses the human rights of their people. That way those nations that respect such human rights may compete on a level playing field with those who don't.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  9. #9
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The U.S. was started as independent states, united under a free trade and common protection agreement.
    It's been absolutely horrible for us, to trade freely between the different states, right?
    Except that the states have pretty comparable human rights protections with each other.

    Nations can vary wildly in that regard. Which is why I want to put human rights tariffs on products imported from nations that abuse human rights.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  10. #10
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    Re: Free Trade

    Free trade has been wonderfully beneficial to economic growth on both a local and global scale over the years, if anything, I'd like to see further reduction in trade barriers in the immediate future.

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