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Thread: Free Trade

  1. #11
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    Re: Free Trade

    Along with most economists, I agree that freer trade policy generally increases overall welfare.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #12
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    Re: Free Trade

    I don't like the idea of unlimited free trade that allows international corps to dump cheap products on the US made elsewhere, sucking all the wealth and jobs out of this country. There has to be a compromise that protects and balances the economic equation besides capitalism unchecked. I've long held that fair trade is a combination of rules, regulations and tariffs that gives other nations that want our business reasonable guidelines to follow besides anything goes.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  3. #13
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I don't like the idea of unlimited free trade that allows international corps to dump cheap products on the US made elsewhere, sucking all the wealth and jobs out of this country. There has to be a compromise that protects and balances the economic equation besides capitalism unchecked. I've long held that fair trade is a combination of rules, regulations and tariffs that gives other nations that want our business reasonable guidelines to follow besides anything goes.
    Yes, free trade doesn't mean absolutely unbridled trade policy. Obviously there should still be regulations and standards involved. But on the whole, I'm against economic protectionism.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  4. #14
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    Re: Free Trade

    I tend to agree with everyone who thinks free trade is a race to the bottom and is harming the US economy but…….
    If you look at this in the big picture and think ahead a generation or two free trade may be not only a good thing but an unavoidable thing. After WW2 the US was basically the only industrialized nation that didn’t have its infrastructure and economy destroyed. For many years we had a virtual monopoly on production, we built what we wanted to sell, the world paid our asking price and US comps compensated their workers handsomely with luxurious pay and benefit packages.
    As Europe and Japan rebuilt and got back on their feet we faced some stiff competition for the first time in decades and Japan took over electronic manufacturing and made huge inroads into our auto industry. Now the entire third world is joining the club and they are willing to work long hours at low wages to insure a position in the club.
    As they dump this cheap stuff on the market wages in the US go down and we lose jobs but this may be a necessary and inevitable fact of life. As the third world prospers they will become educated and expect a better life style and higher wages. At some point a balance will be achieved and everyone will start moving up together. The era of the US being the top dog economic super power may be winding down, things change.
    Last edited by sawyerloggingon; 06-10-12 at 12:28 PM.

  5. #15
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    Re: Free Trade

    Perfectly free trade is ideal on paper, and compromised in real life.

    If it was used to capitalize on comparative/absolute advantages, I'd say go for it. If it's an attempt to circumvent nations and attempt to "equal" an unequal race, I'm against it.

  6. #16
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Yes, free trade doesn't mean absolutely unbridled trade policy. Obviously there should still be regulations and standards involved. But on the whole, I'm against economic protectionism.
    Multinationals are avoiding paying fair taxes with offshore banking and accounting tricks. They buy legislation that favors their tactics, using desperate people as cheap slave labor, which leaves everybody hurting but them. The extremists from one end say capitalism is self correcting and the other end wants complete gov over-control. There's got to be a happy medium.

    Some amount of patriotism is not protectionism. If we wanted to have absolutely no barriers of economic protection against intl corporate raiding, then we might not as well bother with borders or calling ourselves a separate nation. Let's just drop the pretense that The United States of America exists and call us the 50 states of the world. If we are willing to spend billions in defense funds and sacrifice soldiers lives to protect strategic petroleum assets, then why not regulate some of the trade/markets better?
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  7. #17
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Except that the states have pretty comparable human rights protections with each other.

    Nations can vary wildly in that regard. Which is why I want to put human rights tariffs on products imported from nations that abuse human rights.
    Errr, the South had slavery, north had little to no worker protections.
    I think you need to reread these things.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  8. #18
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Errr, the South had slavery, north had little to no worker protections.
    I think you need to reread these things.
    Yes, which is why they are still comparable - workers had it horrible in both the North and the South prior to the Civil War.

    But during the Progressive Era and after, things were able to get a little better for all involved because the federal government was able to establish certain nationwide standards for all businesses, especially regarding the safety of their products and the safety of their workers at the workplace. The federal government could enforce basic worker protections between the states.

    We don't have anything like that on an international level, though, and the bulk of the profits made on these free trade deals are going to multinational corporations, their shareholders, and their executives rather than going to the workers. It's only now that Chinese factory workers are demanding more wages, more benefits, and more rights, which will inevitably increase the costs of importing goods from them. And we'll see if the Chinese government will provide those them to their workers.

    And if we don't, Africa may be next target for cheap factory workers.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  9. #19
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why would I apply that to states and counties? That doesn't make any sense.Were talking about free trade with other countries.
    You do not seem to see what the effect of tarriffs are, so I thought perhaps if you thought about it on a smaller scale that you would then see the effect. If nation A has 70% of the shoe export market, and nation B has 70% of the wheat export market, does sit make any sense to ignore that and insist on nation A trying to produce its own wheat, and nation B trying to establish its own shoe industry? It saves both nations a lot of time, money and trouble to simply trade with each other. I guess you think that the USA can be totally self contained, just like you are, since you grow (or hunt for) all of your own food, make all of your own clothing, furniture and appliances (and are thus likely way too busy to make anything to sell). Nations, just as people, cities, counties and states would be foolish to try to do everything for themselves and ignore trading with others, selling what they can make a surplus of and then buying what they lack.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-10-12 at 06:54 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #20
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    Re: Free Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by NotEliTanenbaum View Post
    Do you agree that free trade improves productive efficiency and offers consumers better choices, and that in the long run these gains are much larger than any effects on employment?
    Free Trade offers Consumer more choices, I will agree with that part, but with a hidden cost.

    Does it produce more efficiency, maybe.

    Does it kill US employment, yes.

    Free Trade has brought in thousands of Junk Imports, many of those products are laced with Lead and others have killed our Pets, made people sick, etc.

    Due to Cheap Import Products, many US companies have moved manufacturing to cheap labor Countries.

    Call me crazy, but if 80% of the foreign imports were no longer available, I would not be sad, yes I would be willing to pay more for American Made, but also most of my fellow Americans would have a job too
    Career Politicians are the Downfall of America

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