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Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?


  • Total voters
    64
Unions hold public office?

Often they will elect their own, certainly. More often public unions will wield significant political power to put politicians in power who are beholden to them (and who know what will happen should they commit heresy).

So, public officials have no responsibility, are not accountable to the voters, and cannot control state budgets.

Depends on the state. What are seeing is, the more powerful the public union, the more difficult to impossible controlling state budgets is. In California, for example, 80 cents of every public dollar goes to... public unions. And the state is in a fiscal nightmare because they are extremely powerful, and refuse to allow it to cut spending.
 
from Camlon

Again, you are thinking like a simpleton.

If true, that is about 100 IQ points above the level you seem to be operating at.

I told you why I am not comparing for more variables to find household income in each state. Because trying to do so will make it worse.

Only for your ideological position based on your own beliefs.

You will certainly end up with comparing for irrelevant variables, or dependent variables. Also, your results is extremely dependent on what factors you adjust for, and how you adjust for them. Your study make itself worthless by adjusting for factors such as the age of the state and unemployment rate.

All I insist on is comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You reject that. I must say that in all my years I have never encountered anyone who defends a surface study over a detailed study. You take the prize for that.

You strongly DO NOT WANT TO COMPARE apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You simply want to go into the grocery store and make broad and sweeping statements about the average price of a grocery item compared to the average price of a grocery item in a different store. Don't confuse you with facts. To you it makes no difference that one grocery store A carries 6,000 different items while grocery store B contains but 1,000 different items. To you it makes no difference that store A is in a very upscale area while store B is in a economically depressed area. To you it makes no difference that store A caters to ethnic populations with different dietary needs that store B does. To you it makes no difference that store A was only recently built and is state of the art while store B is sixty years old and has not been remodeled in thirty five years. To you it makes no difference that store A is four times the size of store B.

So store B runs an ad which proclaims OUR PRICES ARE CHEAPER THAN STORE A.

In reality, their average price of a sum of all their items, they do have a point. However, when you examine the items both stores sell and exclude the low bargain basement line of store B and the expensive items of store A - here is what you discover

*** comparing the same 1 1/2 pound loaf of Brownberry rye bread - store A is fifteen cents cheaper than store B.
*** comparing the same 64 ounce size of Ocean Spray Apple juice - store A is thirty cents cheaper than store B.
*** comparing the same half-gallon of Sunk Kist orange juice - store A is twenty cents cheaper than store B.
And in 300 other common items that both stores sell - Store A is cheaper than store by by 7% over all.

Item to item of the same thing - store A is cheaper.

But you would support store B in their claim that their average price is cheaper.

Compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Compare like workers also. If you do not - you are engaging in intellectual dishonest and outright fraud.

You personify the right wing zealot who is willing to skew information any way you have to skew it to "prove" your point.

I noticed that you completely ignored the grocery store comparison. Now if I did that you would make that a major issue in the next five pages of your posts.

And, you can rest your arms now and quite patting yourself on the back. I NEVER said that right to work states workers earn more. In fact, they earn less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

In summary, these statistics indicate that in RTW states, wages are 9.4% lower

Now I did cut out the next part about cost of living as a favor to you because you so do hate discussing any other fact beside the simple gross numbers. You are welcome.
 
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Often they will elect their own, certainly. More often public unions will wield significant political power to put politicians in power who are beholden to them (and who know what will happen should they commit heresy).



Depends on the state. What are seeing is, the more powerful the public union, the more difficult to impossible controlling state budgets is. In California, for example, 80 cents of every public dollar goes to... public unions. And the state is in a fiscal nightmare because they are extremely powerful, and refuse to allow it to cut spending.

So a majority in these states a union members? I'd like to see those numbers.
 
And you wonder why we're sending blue collar jobs to China as fast as we can.

Nah. Now China is losing jobs to Vietnam and India.

Besides, there are manufacturing jobs growing here in the States. Even automakers. Just not unionized ones :).
 
If true, that is about 100 IQ points above the level you seem to be operating at.
Seriously, that is the best you can do. Just say I am dumber. You are proving my point, you are a simpleton. You need to start thinking in a more sophisticated manner.

All I insist on is comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You reject that. I must say that in all my years I have never encountered anyone who defends a surface study over a detailed study. You take the prize for that.
No, I reject your study, because you are unable to defend it. Hence you are not comparing oranges to oranges. I told you, if you want to use your study then you need to defend it. Is that so difficult to understand?

I am just going to repeat what I said last time, and don't ignore it this time
Let us say someone presented a partisan right wing study who show that unions are terrible. Then you look at it, and find a lot of flaws. Then he ignore all your arguments, and only when you write it bold and increase the size by 5 times, he responds. He says, I am unable to defend the study because I am not him. But you still need to accept still all finding in his study.
You would never accept that, so why do you think I should accept it?

Also why do you keep ignoring any argument you find difficult?

I noticed that you completely ignored the grocery store comparison. Now if I did that you would make that a major issue in the next five pages of your posts.
As pointed out, I am ignoring it because it is not relevant to the point. Your study is not comparing oranges to oranges. And I am not even trying to do that. I am just comparing who earns more adjusted for costs.

And, you can rest your arms now and quite patting yourself on the back. I NEVER said that right to work states workers earn more. In fact, they earn less.
I have already proven they do. Household income adjusted for costs in RTW states are higher. You did not deny it.

You instead said we should check what an equivalent worker earns, but you are unable to show what an equivalent worker earns because your study is debunked.

You can cry, scream, be as mad as you can. But as long as you are not defending your study, then it is worthless. It is that simple.
 
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As an aside, I actually find cottage industries/Mom & Pops to be quite acceptable. That's not where the problems lie. It's MegaCorp & Co that creates most of the problems in the capitalist system.

What sorts of problems do you see being created by larger businesses?
 
Camlon

you badly need to check the needle on the phonograph record. Its been stuck in a rut for days now and it just keep repeating the same old tired and lousy notes over and over and over again.

I have been defending the study......

over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over yet again. I have told you repeatedly that the study cited by Lafer is solid and is far far superior to anything you mentioned because precisely that it considers over 40 different variables and measures apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

Your reply: nanananana --- and stick your fingers in your ears.

So I attempted to get you away from your beloved right to work and show you a different example using the grocery store but apparently you are not up to the intellectual task of being able to make that mental leap.

By this time I wonder if you are some sort of robot program.
 
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What sorts of problems do you see being created by larger businesses?
Why lower prices. Greater selection. More convenient locations. Those type of problems.
 
What sorts of problems do you see being created by larger businesses?

:shrug: apparently small businesses are only morally acceptable so long as they aren't... you know, too successful.
 
Who said they would be? You are trying to create a strawman.

No, no, no... You are removing responsibility from both the politician and the voters. the only way your senario works is if union members are a clear majority, and they come out and vote. Otherwise, it doesn't hold water. I'm trying to get you to realistically follow your own logic.
 
I have been defending the study......
Liar.

I hope you haven't forgotten how you first choose to not respond 5 times, and to get you to respond I had to make it bold and increase the text size by 5 times. Then when you finally responded you said that you couldn't respond to the criticism of the study because you are not the professor.

But go ahead prove me wrong. Last time you tried to get away with this lie, I asked you to quote yourself. You didn't follow up. If you have forgotten. My criticism of his study revolved around his cherrypicking of a few states and ignoring the rest, and that he said there was no correlation when his data did show a correlation.

So I attempted to get you away from your beloved right to work and show you a different example using the grocery store but apparently you are not up to the intellectual task of being able to make that mental leap.
I already told you why I didn't care much about your dumb grocery example. I reject your study, because I gave it criticism, and you failed to defend it. Your grocery example is based on the belief that I think your study is comparing apples to apples. Which I don't.

Also, the reason I have to repeat myself is because you are not responding to what I write. If you state the same argument over again, then why do you expect me to give you another response?
 
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And you wonder why we're sending blue collar jobs to China as fast as we can.

There is nothing to wonder about, its because the GOP doesn't want to end the tax breaks for outsourcing.

Why should they? The rich here are the most wealthy they have been in 50 years. Things are going great for the rich. Not so much for the working class who's jobs were outsourced.
 
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No, no, no... You are removing responsibility from both the politician and the voters. the only way your senario works is if union members are a clear majority, and they come out and vote. Otherwise, it doesn't hold water. I'm trying to get you to realistically follow your own logic.

Exactly, I've read that only 11% of the population belongs to a union (and that includes both public and private unions). It is laughable for someone to say they are the cause of our economic problems.

But, hey it makes a great distraction for those who focus on shiny objects.
 
No, no, no... You are removing responsibility from both the politician and the voters

Politicians represent who is responsible for them winning elections. Sometimes you get individuals who are willing to instead support a vague idea of "the public interest", but they tend to be replaced over time with those who more accurately recognize and serve their benefactors.

Public Unions are lately responsible for many won and lost elections at the State and Local level. Those politicians know this, and respond accordingly.

YOU are trying to divert to some kind of mythical theory land wherein interest groups do not exist.

the only way your senario works is if union members are a clear majority, and they come out and vote

Actually it works if public union members are greater than the difference in the votes. Which, if you will recall, I pointed out to you several pages back is often enough the case.


But I find it hilarious in order to defend yourself you have to claim that public unions have no political power.

Gosh, sure seems like they've been wasting alot of money and effort over the years :roll:.
 

you are a simpleton.



Forget about you and forget about me. The facts are simple and undeniable:

1- Workers in unionized states earn more money than workers in non union RTW states.

2- Workers in unionized states have better insurance benefit coverage that workers in non RTW union states.

3- Workers in unionized states have better pension coverage levels that workers in non union RTW states.

Call me all the silly names you feel you need to. It makes no difference to me as none of that grade school nonsense changes those three facts.

You do NOT need the Dr. Lafer study to be informed about reality. The information is available from the official US government figures as well:

The United States Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Occupational Employment Statistics, May 2011 Occupational Employment and Wages Estimates http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcst.htm , shows median hourly wages of all 22 Right to Work States (RTW) and all 28 Collective-Bargaining States (CBS) as follows:
CBS all occupations average $16.89
RTW all occupations average $15.31 a difference of $1.58 an hour (-9.4%)
 
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Forget about you and forget about me. The facts are simple and undeniable:

1- Workers in unionized states earn more money than workers in non union RTW states.

2- Workers in unionized states have better insurance benefit coverage that workers in non RTW union states.

3- Workers in unionized states have better pension coverage levels that workers in non union RTW states.

Call me all the silly names you feel you need to. It makes no difference to me as none of that grade school nonsense changes those three facts.

hm. well okay, for the moment let's take your assertions as true.

When you raise the price of something, what happens to demand for it?
 
hm. well okay, for the moment let's take your assertions as true.

ASSERTIONS!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Are you denying the reality of the US Department of Labor statistics?
 
ASSERTIONS!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Are you denying the reality of the US Department of Labor statistics?

:) No - explicitly I am saying let's take them as true. Is there a particular reason you are avoiding the follow-on question?
 
:) No - explicitly I am saying let's take them as true. Is there a particular reason you are avoiding the follow-on question?

Are they true or are they not true?

Do I need a tenth grade Econ text which tells me the theory of supply and demand to answer that or are you going to present real world facts and figures which further your point?
 
I would just like to hear what you think the answer is. When price increases, what happens to demand?
 
I would just like to hear what you think the answer is. When price increases, what happens to demand?

I imagine it would depend greatly upon many other factors.
 
There is nothing to wonder about, its because the GOP doesn't want to end the tax breaks for outsourcing.
What, exactly, are these supposed tax breaks? When were they crafted? And why werent they ended when dems ran the congress?
 
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